Sony Under Heavy Fire for Handling of Indies on PS Store

"Next time you're unhappy about your game never being discounted on Platform X...please go and complain to Platform X!”

No, I'll still complain to the dev/publisher. They can discount the game even if they don't want to be a part of an official sale. There's plenty of better playstation storefronts that track games going on sale and it's not uncommon for games to show up discounted on random days not part of an official sale.

I'm generally wrong about things, but does one irate developer/publisher's comments costitute being 'under fire'? Maybe you can be literally under fire from one source but sounds a bit dramatic for someone just airing their grievances.

Gonna cry? Dude seems to have made it big on twitter at least. If it wasn't for PS plus I'd not have played a single indie game these past few years. There are just too many great aaa games on PS. In the end, even if your a nobody if your game is great people will find it.

"Garner claims that developers aren’t allowed to offer launch discounts"

This is a lie. Unless he realized he can get full price from people, Ratalaika always launches his games with a discount.

As a VITA owner, I’m already very annoyed about their policy for allowing discounts only when they can be bothered to set up sales.

Surely there are aspects that could be streamlined, but overall Sony's process doesn't seem particularly onerous. Years ago my job involved bringing new items into a retailer, and there's just a lot of paperwork and drudgery involved. The reasons behind the drudgery were often good ones, though. Avoiding fraud and potentially dangerous items and the like. There are always difficulties that come up when the small players have to interact with much larger ones, just because of the difference in scale.

Also, almost all vendors hate working with their retail partners. Sadly, that's just a fact of life. But at least it gives them someone to blame when they can't hit their numbers.

All I know is if I was an indie developer I would only release on Switch and Steam.

valid points but complaining about having to provide platform specific trailers? I ain't buying a game if there is no gameplay trailer

That's pretty crazy you're given no control over discounts. I'd like to know how that fairs with Nintendo and Microsoft.
However, being FORCED to do 'busy work' in the way of providing platform specific trailers....GOOD! I've no sympathy in you not getting away with being able to mislead with your product. On the Nintendo eshop there's often bullshots and gameplay footage taken from other platforms used to sell that version of the game. How's that defendable?

I'd also be interested to know how promoting their game fairs on the eshop...which gets about 10 indie games a day that get lost within the clutter.
Paying 25,000 sounds a crazy ask for an indie dev. How proven is the pay off for that spotlight though to warrant the cost? You're getting a lot of eyes on it.

@get2sammyb how is Prison Architect on sale right now then? The price just discounted a couple days ago and it doesn't appear to be part of a larger sale.

@get2sammyb That seems correct. Manufacturers can suggest a retail for their product to be sold at, but there is no obligation for the retailer to agree to it.

Good for him. The store needs a massive overhaul (another one). And I can only imagine how frustrating Sony’s (sorry, Platform X’s😏) internal policies are.

As much as I love Playstation, Sony can be very behind the times in a lot of ways. Their customer support for example is awful. They don’t even have online chat support in the UK (or they didn’t last time I had an issue).

There are so many areas they could improve but they never seem to bother.

@Milktastrophe
Maybe they agreed for it to be in the sale to start at a later time for some reason.

Don't know the deets but asking for them to submit a trailer and a blog writeup with their game doesn't sound like the most unreasonable ask. Maybe the other platforms don't require that, but they should.

$25k to be featured sounds steep for an indie though. And they should have at least a little say in when/how much it is discounted. We've heard that particular accusation before from other indie devs.

Unless they like Disco Elysium, A Plague Tale or Kena (more AA I guess) I did not pay $499 of hardware to play Indies.

I get Indies dirt cheap on PC sales or even better GamePass.

It drives me nuts when Nintendo dumps a flood of Indie nonsense on the main recent release Switch store window.

Once again, disgraceful, Sony. Really appalling.

You want your game to succeed?
Use social media.
It's 2021, not 2001. Creating social media buzz is the best thing. Go on podcasts, create videos talking about the design choices in your game. Livestream. Guest star on a streamers stream showing the game off.
There's other ways of getting your game out there that don't rely on Sony's rules.

Meanwhile his games will get buried under the mountains of shovelware and calculator apps on Switch.

My point is there are issues across all platforms, and its a poor business decision to publicly air your grievances on the internet. There are better ways of raising this with Sony, surely!

I agree that some of this info sounds like it must be really frustrating, particularly for small devs. We've seen countless examples over the past year. But this isn't the way to resolve the issue

I don't know if these specific complaints are the issue, but we've heard from multiple devs that it's uniquely hard to sell indie games on the PS4, and that's bad for me as a consumer.

Maybe the store needs revamping so games are more discoverable.

@fR_eeBritney agreed Sony can be insanely behind the times! I've moved for work but I can't change the country for my psn account. All I can do is create a new psn account and lose all of the ps plus games I've collected over the years. it's laughable.

I can't even imagine what developers have to jump through when they don't even have a good support system for their customers.

Some good buzz from PlayStation and then some negative buzz to balance things out.
The endless cycle...

this way of doing it is childish dev needs to sort it out! social media is not the place!

@JJ2 yeah we will probably get a Phil says this soon 🤣

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi same

@get2sammyb Prison Architect was discounted on the 26th, the mid year sale started on the 23rd, and it's not part of the "full list of games"

https://blog.playstation.com/2021/06/22/mid-year-deals-promotion-comes-to-playstation-store-2/

@naruball no. It’s their platform, they can do what they want with it, charge what they want for it. If you don’t like it, you can go to a different platform.

The Forest was an indie title that came out two years ago and was on top of I think Mays most purchased psn games... so maybe it’s just your game. It’s not Sony’s job to promote every single one of the thousands of games on its platforms.

For what it’s worth, I have Simulacra on PS4. It’s an oddly compelling game, definitely worth the price…especially for snoopy people who find it fun to look into what goodies can be found on someone else’s cell phone.

I’m all for better relations between Sony and indies but honestly, if your game’s only meaningful promotion is through the store then you’re doing it wrong.

@AgentGuapo what are you even on about? So, now you can't criticize anything and if you do, you should switch platforms as if they're any better? Or like they have the games you're most interested in?

@Jimmer-jammer don't you think that they should be able to discount their games? That's how I discover most indie games. When they're part of a sale.

@naruball He's just on defense mode because it's not a positive article about Sony.

All 3 have big problems. For the other 2, Xbox games generally get overlooked if they're not on Game Pass meanwhile the Switch eshop is awful for discovering games (really needs a big overhaul).

You sure he’s not talking about Stadia?

This is exactly why indies sell best and have higher sales figures on nintendo.

Sony seems intent on burning all but the biggest of bridges these days. Maybe not a great idea with a resurgent Microsoft and Nintendo nipping at their heels.

Although allowing developers full control of how often and how much their games go on sale has its own issues. Switch eshop sales are clogged with the same set of mediocre looking indie titles every week before it's a cheap way to increase visibility for your product.

I can say that if I was an independent developer, I'd probably give Sony a wide berth. I've noticed for a while that indie devs seem to report that their games often sell particularly poorly on Playstation consoles, and given the culture of dismissiveness toward smaller games and developers in PS Land, I'm not surprised.

I can believe it. You can see most indie games that are on PC also launch on Switch/Xbox day and date, but not on PS. They may come at a way later date, but i have a suspicion its the hell this guy from the article is talking about having to go through with Sony. Sonys nose is so high in the air from the PS4s success that they think its a privilege to be on there platform. Its the success of PS2 all over again.

Most indie games are pointless garbage anyways so meh

@Agramonte I got tired of sifting through the eShop titles. It feels like I’m on one of those freeware sites. Also, it’s great for consumers to get a platform-specific trailer so they know how it’ll work on the hardware. Especially since demos aren’t a thing anymore.

@naruball I don’t know the legal ins and outs surrounding the PlayStation store, but yes I would like to see that. I don’t appreciate that developers and publishers are entirely at the mercy of Sony, hence my position of being all for better relations between Sony and indies.

Moving beyond sales specifically, my point is that raising awareness of your game strictly based off of discounts on the store is a half hearted marketing push. I’d like to see problems solved and awareness raised by tapping the endless human ingenuity of your team, not by complaining to the masses. There is no guarantee that people will buy your game simply because it’s featured on the store. Blaming Sony is not leadership. Also, being charged for a featured spot on the store is completely reasonable to me.

With all that said, what’s done is done and hopefully awareness around the issue provides solutions for those feeling the same way as Mr. Garner.

I didn't even know that the Playstation Store had wishlists.

I'm not clear about the complaint here. If the complaint is that the store is such a jumbled mess that their game is hard to find I would agree.

But if there complaint is Sony isn't actively advertising their game free of charge. That's not really up to them. Indie games unfortunately have to not only be great, but need solid word of mouth in order to be successful.

@AgentGuapo So if we follow your way of thinking we shouldn't criticize Sony in any way, we shouldn't even try to make them improve in some areas (like their return policies) cause it's their platform and they do what they want so we should just shut up and smile 😐

@Artois A lot are better than the triple A garbage the big publishers release every year.

I feel bad for small indie devs. They already have it hard enough as it is trying to stand out and if this is how they're treated it's even worse for them. I wouldn't exactly say the other marketplaces are any better, since most on the e shop have to discount their game to like $2 to stand out... it's just a hard business out there to crack nowadays. Incredibly competitive.

Just me or is this guy really complaining about how Sony doesn't promote his game?

The guy is not doing himself any favours.
Personally I see indies getting exactly the same storefront presence as big releases, and its actually annoying. I'd prefer to go to the store and see all the aa and aaa titles without having to wade through stacks of indie and pixel art rubbish that dominates the store.

What do these indie games have in common - they are digital. Sony has everyone by the balls

You can clearly see how playstation is being run by businessmen not gamers, remember Shaun layden and Shuhei, they reversed the playstations downward spiral by putting games first not profit. Its also noticeable the xbox one reveal disaster was under the misplaced guidance of business execs and only turned it around when Phil Spencer, a clear gamer, took over.
Now playstation is going strong, you can't deny it, but every week there seems to be a new PR disaster that needs dealing with and if things continue as is, eventually xbox will be a serious consideration for even the most dedicated playstation fan

How does this help to explain Life Of Black Tiger?

Im still catching up on all these nice triple A games. Never cared for an indie game tbh

Congratulations mate, you've admitted as a publisher that you dont know your job and tried put distance between yourself and the only store front where people dont expect free games or stuff for £2. I've seen your game, it wont sell cause its not good and you cant blame Sony for that.

And just because of his crying on Twitter. I'll make sure to never buy his games ever again.

@Daveuppercut In fairness, Shuhei is now head of indies, so this IS on his watch.

I am also increasingly sceptical about this negative news cycle around Sony. Things are being blown way out of proportion at the moment (not particularly referring to this story, but the whole anti-playstation sentiment breeding online) and something smells off about it.

Has Sony made mistakes? Sure they have. And they should be held to account for those things. The whole PSN store debacle has been a colossal PR disaster.

But at the same time, they are continuing to deliver high quality games and a packed release schedule for their customers. The rage online is just too much.

Funny things is with the Internet being what it is with a multitude of gaming media ,I have yet to come across any hidden gem indie game that isn't promoted by Sony in some way,im sure someone can tell me different

"If Platform X doesn't like your game, no fanfare no feature no love. There is nothing you can do to fix this."

As a customer I love this. I don't want to open PlayStation Store to be greeted with games that payed their way to be featured, rather than earned it with product quality.

Stay the course, Sony.

Why am I not surprised? My beloved Playstation is falling hard into the lack of humbleness and perspective that arrogance begets. They need a failure to get the receptive attitude back.

@get2sammyb ah, but according to psprices what I said was accurate. Interesting that it was discounted on different days for US and GB.

https://psprices.com/region-us/game/4513554/prison-architect-total-lockdown-edition

"I have no idea how to succeed on this platform"

Probably by making a good game.

But it´s not the first case we´ve heard about this and probably won´t be the last i suspect,maybe time Shu start handling is sector a litlle better.

"We’re also told that Microsoft runs similar payment schemes for the Xbox store." Kotaku.

Odd a indie Dev would be angry at Sony for their charging, but not at other platforms that charge for the very same thing. Also with the amount of Indie game's these publishers like Sony get on their platforms, why do you expect privilege's over other indie Devs? You obviously know what your agreeing too when putting your game on said platforms, why even put your game on said platform if your not happy about the agreement? And then take it too social media. You see this behaviour a lot on twitter, outrage culture.

@Zudeo Exactly... I have said it from day 1. The Nintendo Eshop needs an "indie tab".

"Also, it’s great for consumers to get a platform-specific trailer so they know how it’ll work on the hardware"

Yes, good point.

I think at a minimum all console makers should require that trailers be marked on what it was captured on (for any game) to be able to list their console trademark at the end.

In sony's defence about the discounts, the switches discount section is such a mess that I don't even bother looking at it any more.

@AgentGuapo You’re correct but how is that good for anyone? Being obstinate about prices and not letting a developer put their game on sale is complete nonsense.

I don't know to what extent he's right but some of his complaints seem really dumb.

Obviously Sony doesn't want a game trailer on their blog with Xbox controls on the screen. Obviously.

And it's onerous to write a description of your game for the blog? You can't even be bothered to describe your own game for promotional purposes? Does he want Sony to brush his teeth as well?

And he seems to be saying "if they don't like your game then they won't actively promote it for free." Uh . . . duh? Why would they promote stuff if they don't think it reflects well on their brand?

What happens to sony? In the early ps4 days they're the darling in the indie community but now they kind of suck for indies.

Sounds like the guy has a serious case of victim complex. Should he be able to change the price of his game at anytime on the PS Store? Absolutely. The rest of his grievances come off as a guy looking to point the finger at someone else for his own failings.

I'm of two minds here.

On the one hand: Sony always needs to fix their *****. They're so backwards on everything (except compatibility!) and this is one more case of it.

On the other hand: The indie game market is just too overcrowded at this point. I never buy indie games on Steam anymore. I think the Switch has a pretty good balance of curation and openness, but even then, it has gotten a bit too open for my liking.

On the third hand: Life of Black Tiger happened.

One would question himself, why there is not Indie section on ps store? or I just didn't found it?

What worries me more is Search politics. Why the hell if I write anything, the first pops up FIFA? How the hell is FIFA connected for example with Bud Spenser and Terrence Hill Slaps and Beans?

@Rob_230 I'd forgotten about Shuhei being in charge of indies, although how much that bleeds over into the red-tape surrounding the psn I don't know.
Your right that alot of this news does get blown out of proportion, it just seems to always be coming from things Sony have done and I am curious if its just because they are currently on top.
Either way there is a pattern of massive success giving way to disaster ie Wii to wii-u, ps2-ps3(initially) 360-xbox one and whilst I'm not saying playstation is going to go that way again, it can happen.

Sony seems to becoming victims of their own success again. I hope they snap out of it quick.

@KippDynamite The most valid points on this comment section. You really summed it up perfectly unlike others jumping on that "arrogant" Sony ship again

Phil Fish, is that you?

Seriously though, being self employed, I am multiple jobs in one, including promotion. So yes, Sony's "demands" don't seem too much as you should be doing all that anyway. Write a blog and make platform specific trailers because you need to. Sony isn't going to do all that for you, even if they like you.

@David187
You know what ?
That story reminds me of the CMOS bomb fuss that was in all the media but after we find out its even worse on xbox the press goes all quiet haha

I see his point and Sony should make it a little easier for indies but at the same time I don't want the same old game being copy and pasted just like most indies on Steam right now, don't need extra clutter on the ps store front.
Also, the point "which require small developers to engage in copious busywork, forcing them to generate platform specific trailers and PlayStation Blog copy text." shouldn't be a negative at all.
We need to see how the game actually looks like and not just have a screenshot from a PC.

@Juanalf No. I mean if a developer wants to put a game on a certain platform, the developer needs to educate him or herself about the economy of being on that platform and not expect Sony to give them free marketing. I don’t know any platform that does this, so not sure why everybody is being so salty towards Sony.

@FatalBubbles I agree that there should be some sort of channel for a publisher to affect prices TO AN EXTENT. The switch eshop has become basically unusable from all the “discounts” from $9.99 to $0.09. I’d like to keep my gaming systems and stores clutter free of shovel ware. But yeah, Sony should consider letting publishers have better freedoms to change price, have sales.

Sony badly needs to repair their relationships with Indie studios, they were on a role with PS3 and PS4 but with the lack of games on PlayStation. They need those relationships and it helps in the long term in finding talent!

Ok, so prepare for a hot take here.

First, let me say, yes, i agree that Sony should give more control over the games, but... the exposure thing, i'm sorry, no.
The switch is swimming in these crappy indie games. It is a pain to find the bigger games unless you manually search for them.
This stuff is also all over the PS shop. It is obnoxious to browse through all these mini-games i have no interest in.
Thankfully, the PS store loads faster than the switch one, so i can still be bothered to browse till the end.

The point being... silver linings. Don't think you are entitled to shove your small game in our faces. But, you should have acess to it's sales data and when it goes on sale.

“I have no idea how to succeed on this platform”

Here’s an idea, put out a compelling game and people will play it. It’s really that simple. I glanced at Neon Doctrine’s output and I’m not surprised their games don’t sell well on Playstation. Playstation sells more software than any of their rivals so your game needs to stand out. If the quality is there, people will buy it.

Has anyone actually looked at the game this guy released?!? Maybe no ones buying because no one wants to. Im getting tired of these Indie devs whining because they cant manipulate the Playstation store like they can the Eshop. Dump the price to ten cents in a sale so the game climbs up the charts, then raise back to 10 bucks regular price. This has been going on for ages on the Eshop.

I love how all the people defend Sony on this ,. In the past few weeks alone we have had games not having crossplay on Sony because of their prices /terms and now it's pushing Indies away cause they want too much money ,. I wouldn't mind if got their s"it together with this and other stuff ( external ssd, moving save games from PS4 to ps5 and backward compatibility) especially backwards compatibility cause we all know they plan to release games again and make more money , please Sony stop making me regretting buying a ps5

Hopefully more indie devs come out and throw fuel on this fire. Even PS+ games - when they are a fun indie, they often become very popular. Instead we get 'AAA' online FPS garbage every month

@naruball I only find out about them on LRG and YouTube and reviews.

@Nem I think we just have to many games with a lot of shuffleware that bury the better indies. But maybe rotating trailers on the indie page would be a idea.

@patronmacabre I totally agree with you there are so many little titles its just to crowded. I dont even have the patience to browse through the indie page its just to much.

I'm not Sony shouldn't be held accountable for their mistakes and such, but for now I could care less. I'm a little late to the party, so I'm still enjoying Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. I'm more concerned with enjoying this beautiful masterpiece.

I do love PlayStation but I'm seriously worrying about Sony's attitude since the launch of PS5. They need to understand that in order to be successful they need to continue their good graces.
Many people seem to be of the attitude I was at the start of last gen. There's more than one platform and I'm going there.

I'm almost certain it's no coincidence that this is all happening after Jim Ryan took over.

@wiiware I agree. Wasn't Sony all about caring for the indies at the start of the PS4 gen? Heck, they've kept the Vita going long after Sony shot it with both barrels. Can't help but think that PS has lost its way.

@get2sammyb Can we stop referring to Sony as a 'Japanese giant'? I don't think the current management have a clue as to where Japan is, never mind the bigger picture as to what Playstation means to the owners.

Bring back House and Layden I say.

@Martsmall Sell it then. I dare you. There's no shortage of people wanting to get a ps5 for great games that are not upset by these minor issues, such as an indie dev with a mediocre game not having front page exposure. Cry me a river...
Please get a switch and look at their shop. It's a clusterfeck! You can't find anything of worth in it. Indie games shoved in your face by the dozens as you try to find the big games. It's ridiculous. This indie dev just wants to do the same on the ps shop and i support Sony on keeping some semblance of sanity in their shop.
Sorry i don't take the side of the small guy when he is wrong about it. All they want to do is manipulate the store so people buy their games instead of the big ones by clogging it.

@JJ2 yeah the hypocrisy is unbelievable mate.

@DeepSpace5D I was going to say the same. Want to succeed on this platform: make more interesting games. I can't say I ever heard of any of their games besides Vigil, I think.

@Bush Your last statement depends entirely on people taking their own time to promote a game they like that isnt in the spotlight. I do if I enjoy something enough and it didn't get the attention it should have. However, not loads of people do.

@viktorcode That doesn't explicitly mean they only promote quality games, but that they only promote games that will sell en mass, I.E. games with a lot of hype or have been promoted by other means and platforms. If there was an innovative little indie that was really doing something different it probably won't get the time of day of they haven't 'Garner'-ed (bad pun) the clout.

@Milktastrophe I mean, you've wilfully ignored the latter part of that sentence where it says they aren't allowed to offer launch discounts "without [Platform X’s] approval".

But yeah, feel free to cherry pick words here and there to support whatever argument you want to make.

"For the players"

@Milktastrophe Did you even read the article? Clearly not! Indies are saying THEY CANT discount game because Sony won't allow it. No wonder Indies are making bank on the Switch. Sony's current leadership is rotten. No wonder Sony tried shutting down the Vita store while not notifying anyone even though some Indie devs were actually working on titles for it.

@GwynbleiddPT
"I have no idea how to succeed on this platform"

Probably by making a good game."

If only it were that simple. Plenty of good games that failed to sell well and plenty of mediocre to bad games that have sold a ton.

Take, for example, Gravity Rush, Tearaway, Dreams, Puppeteer (there are so many more). Universally praised, yet failed to sell well or even decently. And these are first party games that get some exposure. Now imagine being an indie developer.

As for everyone saying "use social media", sure, that sometimes helps, but it varies. How would someone check out your trailer if they don't know your game exists? Why would they bother watching your podcast? Who would invite you for an interview, etc. People seem to take a few success stories and think they can apply to everything. For better or worse, it doesn't.

@Nem again with this attitude. People have every right to be disappointed with something (especially if they express it in a civilized manner). It doesn't mean they don't want their console.

Still doesn't sound as bad as their screwing up the PSVR portion of the store. They eliminated the "PSVR only" "PSVR Included" and "New to PSVR". So you only see a limited amount of tiles and a tiny handful of titles.
You can turn on the "PSVR" filter under All Games, but that only shows "PSVR Only" titles - and misses every game where it also has a 2d portion.. games like RE7, Hitman3, No Mans Sky, Persistence, Tetris Effect, Rez, Wipeout, etc etc.
So when a new title drops - prospective buyers cannot buy it unless it is added to the small tiled section under PSVR, or unless it is PSVR Only and caught in the filter.
Many PSVR games are released by indie developers, ironically.

The only way to see all games is to use the Web store and avoid PSN entirely ---- but does anyone know that? No.

@weissen81 I don't know about "leadership" being the problem (I literally don't know where to finger-point), but there is a problem (see my observation on the PSVR section).
I did want to reply though that I see a lot of indie's being discounted. Some are complete and utter trash like the "dragooned" series.
Also your comment on the switch .. I don't agree with.. the Switch eStore is the most dysfunctional store I've ever witnessed and it is filled with as a megaton of garbage indie games as the Steam store. It truly is terrible.

@naruball I don't know what you are talking about. The guy i quoted was the one that says he is regreting buying it.