Neil Druckmann to Continue Writing and Directing at Naughty Dog as Co-President

Fully deserved as well, directed 3 games with all 3 ending up as GOTY.

Expect the next naughty dog game in 2030

Honestly thought he was already. Hooray for corporate restructuring!

Good for him. I'm excited to see what he and the rest of the team at ND come up with next. My fingers are crossed that it's an Uncharted-esque game set in the Savage Starlight universe.

I am super excited to see what's next. After Factions 2, im expecting we might see a new IP from them next.

Congratulations Neil.

I hope new Jack&dexter

@get2sammyb He started out as a level designer for Jak & Daxter? Woah, that's crazy.

Good for him, a well deserved promotion. Really curious what the next big project will be. I would love a tlou 3 but I have a feeling it may be a new IP.

@jack22 Is Jack & Dexter the Chinese knock-off toy version? 😉

@get2sammyb @Deadlyblack Playing Jak II at the minute and boy, does he have a lot to answer for!

@NDL08 The thing is, and you can see that in every sector, you being good at a particular job doesn't make you good at another one higher on the company's hierarchy. For example, it's not because you are a good football player that you also will be a good team manager.
In Druckmann's defense, he has been managing teams since some years now, but a company will be different. I only hope that everything we heard about his forceful management of his teams, and his weird opinions relative to some "issues" trendy on social media will not affect the studio as a whole... but it certainly will.

hopefully he can create some personal growth and treat customers and his own staff with more respect

Well done Neil but I maintain that ND need to still sort out how the studio is run. They can't keep doing constant crunch and have a massive turn over of staff.
I also hope their politics don't take greater hold cos the fallout from TLOU2 will just be the beginning.

Congrats to Neil Druckman for the promotion. It's a nice example of the Peter principle at work.

good bye, uncharted!

@AdamNovice I dunno, TLOU2 came out amidst the crazy political situation of this year, a couple of weeks after the George Floyd murder. Tensions between certain factions were at their highest and it spilled over into video games. I don’t think a future project would generate anywhere near that much hate, especially if things calm down in the next couple of years.

Good news if it gets him out of the writing room!

Yeah all that complaining sure showed him, huh? Good for him. Can't wait to see what is up next.

@Olmaz cute stealth Druckmann hate comment with unsubstantiated rumors but I’ll give you an A for effort

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi he wasn’t responsible for the crunch at ND you know that right?

@Hopewell too bad you could never be even half the great writer he is but I’m sure he would love knowing he lives rent free in your head

Wonderful.......greeeeeeeat.

I hope that's means he's now more involved in the business side of the studio rather than writing games story 😃

Also I'm suprised that the tlou2 trailer from yesterday still have like/dislike ratio and comment. The dislike is more than 50% now (30K/19K) but the discourse is actually respectful, I think in the end people don't like being lied to, and respect honesty. This trailer is at least honest (a bit too late though).

If sony release this trailer before the game launched maybe the game isn't going to sell more preorder than now but at least the discourse won't be this toxic, gamer will know the story beat is different than the first game and will choose accordingly to buy the game or not.

@dark_knightmare2

That was a good snap

@Hopewell Doubtful :[

@dark_knightmare2 all management is responsible, to suggest the vice president wasn't turning a blind eye is bizarre

Well, ND can burn in hell for good now.

I never understood part of the backlash for tlou2. I understood the one part with how a certain character was treated (I'm personally in that camp) and how it all ended but what was the rest of the backlash for?

Was it that there was a transgender character? You can create a full transgender non binary gay or lesbian character in Cyberpunk so that can't be it? Maybe it was Abby's look but again you can create an even more muscular girl in Cyberpunk sooo? 🤔

Was there something else? I really don't understand where the deep hatred comes for the game and Neil.

Blah blah blah politics blah blah blah Neil cuckman blah blah blah bad writing.
Oh, for the haters i have good news for you. This is one of his recent tweets: "Oh... and I’ll still be directing and writing while helping to mentor the next wave of creators."

Guess naughty dog will stay woke then

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi never said he was turning a blind eye but he wasn’t the cause of the crunch since you know ND has been Known for crunching for Like the last ten years or more

I like when guys get promoted who clearly deserve it... Shame this isn't one of those situations. It's like they released the trailer to distract from this news so the backlash could be split 50/50. I won't be so eager to buy a ND game anymore, there's something not right about the whole studio.

Not a good move imo, he’s one of the most unlikable characters I can think of within gaming.

@gomersoul sure, buddy. There's something wrong with them, not you. It clearly can't be you.

Dr Uckman's plan to develop secret AI clearly worked a treat. Laurant Foucault of SPARK Labs warned us! (See card in TLOU2).

Lol at those saying Neil doesn't deserve this promotion because they didn't lke the direction he took in a game. You've no idea what his targets are at ND internally, nor how he is judged on whether he has exceeded them or not.

Everything i've seen is that Neil is hugely respected and valued within Sony - and that's all we need to know really.

Time to step back and realise video game development is a business, and even if you disagree with the end product, there is a hell of a lot more going on within a place of work that - at the end of the day - is a business.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on whether they like the final product put out on store shelves (for me LOU2 is GOTY, but i accept and understand that others may feel differently - FF7 Remake and Ghost of Tsushima also deserve to be in that discussion) - and are fully entitled to judge what ND do next. Thats your perogative.

But to suggest you know better than Evan Wells or the Execs at Sony who work with Neil day in and day out is ridiculous

Of course they've promoted him; ***** always floats to the top.

@NomNom ‘woke’ is only an insult to triggered neckbeards.
The rest of us can handle a wide variety of themes in our entertainment and progressive thinking. Try it.

@naruball what's wrong with me? Do I have to like every PlayStation exclusive to be welcome to offer opinions on this website? There's no smoke without fire pal. They haven't generated this much hate for nothing. If you love them, good for you. But the game wasn't what I wanted, and he's one of the main reasons for that.

@nessisonett It's possible. I just rather not have a repeat of the whole episode all over again. Personally I think they should move onto a new IP tbh.

@AdamNovice I happen to agree, as much as i loved TLOU2 - PS4 was the first Sony home console where ND didnt launch a new IP - and i think they need something new to keep themselves energised.

ND is basically, well, ND so that's no surprise.
I just hope the next game has a good, enjoyable story and likeable characters.

RIP Naughty Dog.

Ha, usual sort of comments from the same old crowd. First ND game without a straight white male as the lead and they can now go to hell or something.

Also, as if some of you care about crunch. It's just a useful stick to beat your hated 'woke' studio with. Stop pretending you actually care, nobody's buying it.

Neil is obviously a very talented guy but because he doesn't aim his games at teenage boys he's become the devil incarnate. Even now I still don't get the fuss over the story of Part II, you don't have to like it but is it really deserving of so much hate? Not for me, indeed anyone that so strongly hates the game isn't someone I feel is worthy of my time as they're clearly nuts and/or just have terrible taste in games and probably all other forms of entertainment.

Congrats to Neil, the usual whiners out there congrats too, your campaign against him really did the trick lol

Well gee I can't wait for all the sad man children to spend the next few years crying about this how fun....-__-

@Keyblade-Dan yeah tell me about it. Basement dwellers unite... or something...

@dark_knightmare2 Cut the crap with the bad faith argument. I mean what I say and I don't hide my views under word games just to amuse forum commenters.

The first part of my comment is just a statement about an extremely common situation in any workplace. I don't know how old you are, but if you have worked even just a bit in your life, you'll have met very bad managers that got there because they were good at their previous (and lower on the company hierarchy) job. We have to stop pretending someone deserve a job not because of their ability to do that job right, but because they did another job right (do you notice how I'm saying Druckmann was good, or at least efficient, at his job there... weird... really weird).
As for Druckmann's flaws, crunch culture at Naugthy Dog and Druckmann's influence on said culture has been sufficiently documented that I don't have to provide any sources. If you come to an article on Naughty Dog on PushSquare and are not aware of these issues, it's on you to educate yourself.

And lastly, Druckmann has been openly promoting views and opinions like those of Anita Sarkeesian, for example. And while his opinions are his own, and he can have and express them as much he want, when they seep into the games (or the company now) he works on, then they are open to criticism by the customer.

Now please get out ofyour strange world where people have to be thinking either exactly like you, or exactly the contrary, and understand that nuanced and complex opinions exist, even if you are not aware of them.

@Turbodream OMG thank you so much! I never knew the concept I'd been talking about had a name (and with hindsight... I should have know dammit, since when does not every single concept hasn't a weird name!!!). You've brought me a little bit of knowledge, so again, thank you!

Haters must love reading these news. Good!

Congrats to Neil, well deserved.

Oh dear, well considering Uncharted 4 was a bit crap and TLOU2 was the worst story of any game I’ve ever played out of the hundreds if not more I have played, then this will be pretty bad for the games I liked. He and his other Co President to be facing charges for their treatment if there staff IMO.

@S1ayeR74 Uncharted 4 was my favourite and the story in The Last Of Us 2 didn't bother me. So in my opinion they'll be fine.

And "charges", what crime has been committed?

Will all of those determined to share their political leanings and bias please do one.

This website, this comments sections is the wrong time, wrong place.

@God_of_Nowt loud and clear lol

@TheIdleCritic You should go and Google how Naughty Dog have been accused of treating their employees. And opinions vary... I won’t support them again and am interested to see what it’s ex employees make in Microsoft’s new studio.

@Juanalf If you can’t see the problem with it then you’ll never understand.

I came here just to say that by reading the headline I knew that people would be pissed. Haters, ofc...just because he did a story one time that you didn't enjoy it makes him bad? Please lol

@Oscarjpc Yeap pretty much, it was nice knowing it although for me it died with part 4.

@Olmaz Yes he will be bribing his views more into his story’s and the studios games, they hadn’t done so before TLOU2, but we shall see what happens. I think their time as an elite studio has passed now though.

@S1ayeR74 Please tell me you can see the irony of Googling bad company practices. And then paying more attention to Microsoft.

@S1ayeR74 I wouldn't go that far. All their games have been masterpieces. Now, I'm not personally a fan of the Last of Us franchise for example (yes, even the first one), but I completely acknowledge the talent that went into the game and its intrinsic quality.
I frankly just worry that I will be left out of fantastic games because of stories and elements more in more at odds with my worldview. But at the same time, there are enough wonderful game today to accept that some of them will no be for me, for whatever the reason.

He clearly set up a TLOU3, that'll be next, probably along side a new IP.

Don't mind me, just here for the comments. Definitely not disappointed so far! Almost as good as a Brie Larson comment section.

@nessisonett So your accusing Microsoft of employing bad practices? And yes I’m interested in what ex Naughty Dog talent will be creating, why? These are the people that made Uncharted 2 and 3 and TLOU 1 after all.

@S1ayeR74 I don’t think you know anything that goes on in Google or Microsoft. Plus Druckmann wrote and directed TLOU1. And Uncharted 4. He’s not suddenly a bad writer just because you didn’t like TLOU2.

@Olmaz Well I will go that far, the story is rubbish, sure it looks pretty with great animation and voice acting, but the story is rubbish. But where as for you it’s all political, for me it’s the fact they deliberately used controversy to warrant the games existence, not the subject matter apart from killing Joel.. They seem incapable of writing a proper sequel that would have made sense, Ellie was known as gay years ago and Abby hasn’t been portrayed as a transgender once, just big but in their world it makes sense, it also lacked any of that connection you had between the characters of the first game. But when it comes to Uncharted 4 I just overall didn’t enjoy it as much as the others, it lacked the wow factor the rest of them had.

@nessisonett No he now just seems to lack any imagination and treats his staff bad. Naughty Dogs antics are well documented, I don’t recall reading anything about Microsoft. Yes I’m aware he made Uncharted 4 and it was not very good for me. A lot of talented people have left the company during and after TLOU and to me it shows in their games that came after.

@Juanalf I wanted to stay out of this, but since you're curious, I'll give you my take 😃

Personally I'm incredibly baffled by the praise that the game has received because, from a writing standpoint, it's just absurd.

-The structure doesn't make any sense;
-the flashbacks are meaningless to the plot and confusing at best, and manipulative at worst;
-the themes are as heavy handed and poorly managed as they can get;
-the overarching plot is incredibly contrived and held together by tape, and (probably worst of all) it drags endlessly.

Honestly I think a good way to discern who is just b***hurt from Joel's death from who is genuinely criticizing the writing is seeing how much emphasis they put on that event.
I was never a ND fanboy so I didn't take that as personally as many others: to be honest, Joel's death may be a bit contrived, but I think it's the best thing in the whole story.
It works wonders as an inciting incident, and since it's meant as the beginning, you can handwave a little bit of contrivance to get the plot started.
When you realize the contrivances haven't ended there, the story's already off the rails.

It has good ideas and themes, but to me the fact that the first game tackled those same themes much better without even trying is indicative of the overall quality of the writing of this sequel.
I mean, I'm not even a big fan of TLOU personally, but noone can deny that that game was well-written and had a pretty much perfect ending.

I've been passionate about writing, reading about it and studying it for years now, and trust me that I was in utter disbelief when it was confirmed that the leaks were right.
I honestly believed there wouldn't be a chance in hell they would structure the story like that, and that it was a stunt to hinder the game's success.

@naruball I see you haven't lost that fantastic habit you have of always and only attacking people, instead of their opinions.
Are you gonna speak your mind too someday, or will you just keep cowering behind your personal attacks?
It's very easy to attack others but never offer an opinion that could be attacked, isn't it?

@Col_McCafferty lol, it's funny how you came in as a defender of the game only to then discredit anyone who might not like the game 😂
I mean, they're obviously wrong and have terrible taste, right?
I mean, I could tell you that you obviously don't know the first thing about writing if you can't see the glaring issues in the story, but no, I'll just accept the fact that you like the story and I don't.

Your comment is honestly very disgusting and dangerous.
By putting yourself on a pedestal and implying that those who don't like the game are "nuts", or even mysoginistic, you're distorting reality to suit your narrative, which is always dangerous. Be careful with the words that you choose, buddy, you're just making things worse.

I see a lot of people hating all the haters in the comment section but I barely see any haters in the comment. Which doesn't make you any better then the people who hate the game in my eyes.

@S1ayeR74 "Naughty Dogs antics are well documented, I don’t recall reading anything about Microsoft."

They have a history of bad practices, company-wide.

http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf

Anyone who’s going on about ND’s crunch better not be buying Cyberpunk.

@nessisonett 100%. If you are making arguments about hating the crunch on ND but go and buy cyberpunk then you are not making arguments against crunch you are just using it as ammo to attack ND.

@nessisonett @SilentHunter382 these are both immaculate points 👏🏻

Edit: #78 & #80

Hopefully no more Last of Us.

@dark_knightmare2 yes, the crunch was 'caused' by supernatural forces and all senior management were powerless to prevent the poor treatment of staff, they perhaps should have called the Ghostbusters

@SilentHunter382 I always lol when the game industry complains about crunch in a nice warm office. Sitting behind a desk. Crunch is what the rest of us call overtime.

@nessisonett It would definitely be hypocritical of anyone to do so, but this comment also feels like we're verging on a whataboutism defense of ND practices.

Customers are not responsible for the way a business operates.

@clvr well said.

@clvr Mate, how arrogant are you? You're the only one that can recognise good or bad writing?! And yet I'm the dangerous one!

You didn't come up with a list of facts but of opinions only. Your words carry no more weight on here than anybody else's.

@starbuck2212 There is a difference between overtime and crunch. In many other industries you are paid for overtime and it maybe at most 15h overtime but with crunch you are expected to do your 40 hours + up to 60 hours overtime without extra pay as many of the people doing it are on salaries.

@starbuck2212 and regardless of where you do your extra time, too much time spent in work can have a severe determental effect on your home life.

Especially when you wasn't given the choice.

@Richnj Crunch is bad regardless. But people putting it down to one sole man as ammo because they dislike TLOU2 are just insufferable. It’s not really whataboutism because that often misattributes equalities about different situations with different context. Cyberpunk has been proven time and time again to have made use of extensive crunch and terrible work conditions. CDPR have even apologised.

I can't wait until TLOU2 wins GOTY at the Game Awards. Push Square... please don't make an article about it haha.

@nessisonett it would be very hard to separate those that are criticising ND and ND (these abbreviations aren't helping clarity here) because they hate crunch from those that hate TLOU2. Haters are always going to hate, but the critique is valid regardless of where it comes from.

Neil has also "addressed" crunch at ND, and also attacked those, like Jason Schrier, for bringing it up. So in that respect, if ND is any different from CDPR, it's worse. And Neil is clearly well respected within ND and Sony for him to be promoted as he has been. If any one that we know of was in a position to fight back against the work culture, it was him, but we also know that he said that new recruits knew what they were getting in to, which is hardly the words of a man against that culture.

But even if you can't blame him directly for crunch pre this announcement, surely it's fair to say that going forward, that this man can be blamed?

@starbuck2212 thanks 😃 @kyleforrester87 dude c'mon already, the world is in shambles while we're waiting for you to give us the worldwide ultimate universally unanimous verdict! 😄

@Col_McCafferty you're kidding right?
You wrote this, not me:
"First ND game without a straight white male as the lead and they can now go to hell or something."

I just called you out for that and for explicitly saying that anyone who doesn't like the game is either "nuts", or has "terrible taste", and I'm the arrogant one? 😂
Thanks for the laugh 😂

I even went as far as to show that I could've taken the higher ground and shown you that my opinion is more nuanced than yours through my knowledge of narrative writing, but no, I simply told you that I accept your opinion.
I did that in order to avoid this whole thing, but ok, I'm the arrogant one.
God people never cease to amaze me 😂

Man where Is all this outrage with crunch with cyberpunk 2077. Why people don't talk about CD project red crunch as much as naughty dog espcially after breaking their promise of slowing down crunch. But also where Is the outrage for CD project for copyright strike in Twitter to some people for sharing a video of the game that leak. Where are all those thousands of videos of that or people are selective with what they are angry and forgive CD project. HYPROCRITES.

@kyleforrester87 😆😆😆

I find it odd that there were literal gay pride flags in Spider-man, missions where you are cleaning up air pollution/dissolving plastics in the ocean, talk radio Jameson (who was clearly meant to satirize conservative media figures), and even a completely different, more politically correct origin story for Martin Li but all anyone ever talks about is the wokeness of TLoU2.

Is it really as simple as, just make the main character a white dude and everything else will be ignored?

Im looking for that one The Office meme with pizza and everyones dead or fighting, because thats how i feel right now after reading this thread O.O

@TheIdleCritic
Better get the popcorn ready for all the salt

@Juanalf I can't talk for everybody, but for me I dislike the guy because he's a big hypocrite and he has an ego more massive than the Eiffel tower. The fact he is a mediocre writer doesn't help either.

Amy Hennig's departure from Naughty Dog is mostly on him. He mistreats real women to push out "inclusivity" in games. That's dumb.

@Arnna so combating my disdain with generalization. EXCELLENT

@Turbodream
I think youre the bigger Hyporcrite if your ok with the gay pride stuff spider-man

@Texan_Survivor @Turbodream sorry but both of you and everyone who thinks Neil kick Amy out of naughty dog are so stupid and misinformed because if you actually research a little, it's not that hard here i will do it for you https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2020/06/23/ign-amy-hennig-naughty-dog-report/
Oh @Turbodream, he was the story writer of uncharted 4 and tlou 1, and the last one got him an award for writer. And before anyone else says Bruce Stanley he was in charge of the gameplay.

@Paranoimia Well I’m not going to read some biased multi page report, but my point was about treatment of staff, not anti competitive accusations. So considering the large numbers of staff who left Naughty Dog due to their treatment, when did Microsoft do the same? And no redundancies are not the same as that’s staff being asked to leave by the company.

if anyone thinks he ruined the last of us they are fully entitled to hold that opinion, just because he was one of the creators doesn't mean that anyone who believes he ruined it with the sequel should overlook this, irrelevant

@Nepp67 I meant dark_knightmare. That was witty thing He said about the head space.

@clvr I also wanted to stay out of this. But you do seem to flail around your knowledge of writing and narrative, friend. And I'm an aspiring writer who studies literature and as such am curious about this. I read your 'cons' about the story twice over and I honestly don't see any of that in Part II, if anything, I see the opposite of it.
So, I'd really like you to elaborate on those points.

@S1ayeR74 Facts are 'bias' now? 🙄

I'm just saying they are a company known for dubious practices to get what they want. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm also not aware of "large numbers" leaving ND. Sure, there have been a few, and certainly for some of those, I'm dubious about their claims. For example, one animator was claiming various things in March this year. However, in March last year, he was tweeting that he'd been there 5 years, was very happy, and was planning to stay as long as they'd let him.

@Texan_Survivor amy was far from a great writer. Her uncharted scripts were so repetitive. Every game was Elena getting mad at Nate and Nate lying. She was really bad at growing the characters.

@Texan_Survivor Brother, do not bring in the things about Druckmann kicking Henning out. That's all Trump-talk, get your information sources sorted out.

Amy Henning is an amazing creator and I love her and her work so much. She's a gem. But, and here's the biggest but ever, Neil Druckmann told a much better story with HER characters than she could ever hope for. Uncharted 1,2,3 are all some of my favorite games, but 4 stands undefeated in terms of story and characters.

He also didn't ruin The Last of Us, he made it and continued making a better post-apocalyptic work of art. Give us and yourself a break with all that nonsense, dude.

congratulations! Niel & the gang & I have a feeling a new IP is brewing at ND.

@Sam-Bridges yes, of course! I'd love to discuss the subject, since you were very kind and respectful 😃

I of course don't wanna put myself on a pedestal as some kind of authority, I just wanted to give my 2 cents as someone who's passionate about writing and, as such, has a basic knowledge that the vast majority of people don't, but that of course doesn't make me a professor lol
I've only been studying for 5 years or so, so I definitely have a loooot left to learn and practice.

That said, I never wanted to mean this as "I'm a better writer than Druckmann" or whatever, absolutely.
It's just that my formation lets me see flaws where an uneducated person probably wouldn't, just like I will miss the photography, lighting and blocking of a movie, while a crew member sees right through that.
So, disclaimers aside (and I guess you understand why I'm so cautious with this subject lol), I'll sum up my major problems with it, although I might forget some:

-the structure. Boy is it awful. It has a lot of problems if you ask me, but the biggest is certainly how the pacing of the whole story collapses under the weight of this two-part structure.
Maybe you'll disagree, but I think that the pacing is all over the place during this game. Try to graph the rising and falling action, it's literally all over the place.
Aside from the fact that the plot is just point A to point B with little to no motivation or progression, the most glaring example of how the structure cripples the pacing is the midpoint (when Ellie and Abby meet). Problem is, that should've been the dénouement, not the midpoint.
So basically at that point in the story you've worked your way through it all, you're staring the final boss in the eye, and the game goes "oops, let's go back to the start and do this whole thing again, but this time with Abby! Yeeeeee!".

-on the topic of Abby: it's clear that she was meant to create conflict inside the players, but the execution in my opinion is just terrible.
You can't have one half where she's the devil incarnate and then a second half where we're menat to empathize for her "because dog".
Seriously, that dog thing is one of the worst and most manipulative sequences I've ever seen in a game. It's really low in writing terms, and that is one thing I've never seen anyone defend cause it's just poor writing.

-the characters I find all incredibly unlikely or just uninteresting. I never got attached to anyone in Part 2, and I guess that was hard to fudge seeing as it was the biggest strength of the first game.
Their motivations also are not really strong to be honest, but I don't wanna delve into each of them cause it's already a long-a** post (lol), and months have passed, so my memory's not gonna keep everything at the ready.

@Sam-Bridges PART 2

-last but not the least, the dreaded words: LUDONARRATIVE DISSONANCE lol
I said it so dramatically cause I know how hard is to be taken seriously nowadays with that subject ahahahha

No but seriously: the first game was about protecting Ellie due to the almost paternal bond that forms between Joel (the player) and Ellie, and it followed through as a linear 3rd person shooter where you have to survive in terrible comditions and taking hard choices to protect your life and that of those you love. Perfect fit.

Part 2, on the other hand, wants do bad to be a w***ing session on the gravitas of killing innocent, named NPC's and how wrong vengeance is.
Was Part 1's ending not enough moral ambiguity for all this? I mean, who killed those doctors and didn't feel remorse for that?
Of course Ellie is a huge motivation, but that's exactly why doing horrible stuff to protect her is so powerful in that game.
Part 2 is a hollow husk, it's got nothing to say. It's the edgiest thing I've ever seen, which is why I'm so disappointed it is considered even close to the first game, when it basically squandered all the potential and power that that game had.

I'm gonna conclude here cause I've been typing for 20 minutes straight ahahahah

If you're interested in this discussion, though, I would asvise you to look for analyses on YT; I've found a lot good videos in there, both agreeing and disagreeing with my points. I've listened to both sides of the argument and came away with this opinion, but of course it might be different for you.
That why I'd advise you to look those videos up, because you shouldn't trust only one source, and those people are way more knowledgeable than me on the matter 😉
Have a good one, my friend, hope I satisfied your curiosity 😃

@get2sammyb Just because someone created something doesn't mean a follow-up by the same person can't be ruined.

A perfect example of where someone created a series but the follow up to that series was bad and ruin many elements what made the movies great was George luaus. The prequels ruin many things in the original trilogy that didn't need explaining. And even if you don't want to count the prequels then you can just look at the special editions where by many who have watch both the original cut and the special editions would say the Special editions are bad and ruin some elements of the movies.

@dark_knightmare2 Is that you Neil?

@SilentHunter382 the prequels didn't ruin star Wars, it introduced the series to a new generation and led to the creation of the outstanding Clone Wars series.

Nowadays a lot of people who grew up with the prequels think they're the best star Wars films myself included.

@clvr Well, first of all, thanks for writing all that, as a "writer" I appreciate the time you've put into explaining so thoroughly.

You're right that I disagree with a lot of your points. I'm not trying to defend the game, though. As you said, it's been months and the subject is way past these arguments about the game's value. But I do think the structure is unconventional, but not useless or as you said failing.

I was personally very much uncomfortable seeing Abby's part of the story, and unlike Ellie, I don't think if I have it in me to forgive her. But I understood Abby, I think the second half of Seattle really does well in showing you who she is besides being an adversary to Joel and Ellie. I don't think if it fits every story to be told this way, of course, but since that was the feeling they wanted to convey with Part II, I think they succeeded.

About the rest, I've no argument. After all, this is a work of fiction and I'm pretty sure if you find your most favorite movie/game/book and search for reviews you're bound to find negative ones for those just as well. It's all about perspective, I guess, and how we see the world. Would've been extremely boring if we all sat around and nodded in praise for everything out there.

On the note of YT videos and analysis, I've watched some negative ones and positives ones too. What I realized was that I disagreed with both of those as the ones that praised it villainized Joel and the ones that disagreed villainized Neil Druckmann! And in my mind, I just thought they were all missing the point so I stopped really digging in analysis for the game, even if the presenters have more knowledge in the field than I can ever have.

Again, thank you for elaborating, I can understand your point of view better now, even though I still disagree. You have a good one too, mate.

That's it. I'm never buying another ND game. TLOU 2 is the most poorly written game I have ever played.

Not a fan at all of his writing; I think it's distasteful and a bit politically preachy. However, I must say I'm not surprised that he's continuing on with Naughty Dog. The captain must go down with the ship afterall, lol. K, that was a jab, but I have no plans to purchase ND games in the future.

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi once again didn’t say that so quit deflecting. You tried to insinuate the crunch was neils fault when it wasn’t because it was a culture there well before Neil was ever Vice President.

@Olmaz Are you talking about views like people no matter their gender or sexual orientation should be treated equally or fair because if you have a problem with that you’re a gamergater whose opinion means less than nothing.

@get2sammyb always is when it’s about Neil Druckmann lol. I just find it funny people who haven’t commented or been seen here in gods knows how long all of sudden feel the need to comment about how much of a bad man Neil is smh.

@stefan771 it’s not but cry some more. Seriously quit parroting what you’ve seen your favorite bigoted streamer said because just like him you don’t know what poor writing is and it looks just ridiculous trying to say part 2 as poor writing when anybody with even an ounce of intellect and understanding of literature knows that’s not even remotely close to the truth or reality

@NDL08 That is great that you enjoyed the series and I do agree that the Clone wars series is fantastic.

Now I never said that prequels ruined star wars. I said that it ruined elements that didn't need explaining. There is a difference but as someone who loved the original trilogy and watch the prequels as they came out I found it ruined aspects of the series for me.

@Sam-Bridges you're more than welcome mate, thank you for the constructive discussion 😃

On the topic of the analyses, yeah, I do get the frustration with many thinkpieces on the subject because it being so divisive made it very easy for people to villainize things, as you rightly pointed out.
Thus, recognizing the level-headed critiques among the shouting contest that was going on at the time was certainly difficult.
Luckily for me, though, I've found several creators I trust to make well-balanced and nuanced content, and thus I already know where to look when I want a second opinion.

That said, have a good one! Hope to see you around soon 😃

@dark_knightmare2 Ahaha nice try!

@dark_knightmare2 yes, what I was saying is that all crunch is all his fault, bingo.
Management is responsible for managing employees. This isn't his only major fault but never mind, this is already boring.

@Texan_Survivor Yeah So moving forward and so you can be consistent you should avoid these big crunch studios like CD project, Naughty Dog, Rockstar, EA. If crunch really bothers you so much then you will not support these studios moving forward.

@stefan771 🙄 have you ever played games before? It’s not even close to one of the worst written. What a ridiculously childish and hyperbolic statement.

@clvr you’re entitled to your opinion and you’ve clearly thought about this but would be ou have put this much effort into critiquing the narratives of other big name AAA which weren’t a hot button topic?

I think it’s very odd that people came out swinging at TLOU2 when almost all big video games could be dissected in the same way. Video game narratives have always been kinda rote and flawed. Look at those David Cage abortions - awful writing. I’d argue It’s the medium rather than the writing. Games can’t compete with film or tv because games are interactive and the story won’t flow the same based on how it’s played. They can’t be snappy and succinct and controlled like film.

Just finished TLOU2 and pretty overrated, more then anything it's an absolute slog, should've been 5-10 hours less if you ask me, and I love long games normally

@Texan_Survivor grow up. You’re acting like someone poured sugar i your gas tank.
The game was above average in every way and no amount of hyperbole or deflection arguments about other issues will change anything.
Last time I checked crunch doesn’t affect review scores otherwise every big company would be getting lower scores.
So you’re going to boycott every AAA game developer now? Give me a break.

The main reasons behind the disproportionate vitriol towards ND, Druckman and TLOU2 were always based around its incredible hype and the fact that the game contained progressive themes which seem to trigger a certain cross section of gamers. Just like gamergate. Sad people.

People like you have a bug up your ass because the game didn’t conform to your needs. ND owes you nothing.

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi people like that just use proxy reasons for their dumb vitriol because they are too scared to say they don’t like queer people or women in ‘their’ games.

@Arnna yes, of course I do 😃

I think the reason is pretty clear: usually AAA games are not hyped around their stories and storytelling, while this game clearly was, being made by ND and being the sequel to what is unanimously accepted as one of the most well-realized narratives in gaming history.
It's really as simple as that 😃

On the topic pf David Cage games, I've never played any because nothing about that style of game appeals to me personally, and yes, the few examples I've seen does not exactly inspire confidence in the writing 😅
In any case, I obviously can't comment about those.

And lastly, I strongly disagree with your conclusion that the medium is to blame.
The medium never is to blame.
It's about how you use and for what, and that's the reason why adapting any one medium into another is a very tall order to pull off well.

If you wanna experience a story that really can only be told in video game form, play Nier: Automata. That's one of the very few games I know that couldn't be transposed to any other medium, and it's all better for it!
Actually, it's definitely one of the best games ever created, simply on the basis that every single one of the multitudes of moving parts is interwoven in an incredibly masterful way that I've rarely seen elsewhere, in any medium.
But hey, if it looks like it's not for you at a quick glance I totally get it, it's very good at masking how deep it actually is ahahahah

@clvr I think one of the issues is that big video games try to copy the narrative style of films. Games being ‘cinematic’ has been a common thing for years now and it simply doesn’t work because the mediums are so different. I never want a game to be a movie I want them to be games!
I agree that Nier did something different and I think game writers need to detach themselves from this idea that they can transpose film craft into games.

@Arnna I totally agree on that! 😃
That's why I'm not really fond of ND games and other similar titles, I prefer the story to be more organic even if that means being handled weirdly: see BOTW for example, they couldn't have implemented story and gameplay better, but of course those who sought a more traditional story were left disappointed. Not that I blame them, mind you! I personally liked the approach, but I get why another wouldn't. What is indisputable, though, is that it works perfectly for the game it wants to be.

To be honest I think (or at least hope) that this problem will fade away with time, as video games are still in their infancy now, compared to any other medium.
It's natural for any medium to take time before everyone gets its full potential, let's hope it happens someday 😃

Oh god the revenge bad guy couldn't take the promotion and lean back and let a writer work?

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi it’s not his fault though crunch was a thing before he was management. Now If the conversation was about did he do anything yet to stop it no He hasn’t but that’s not what you said you said he was responsible for all of ND crunch problems which once again isn’t true since crunch was a problem years and years before he ever had a management position

Woah woah Woah woah Neil!! look what you gone and done to the comments!

@Olmaz what do you mean nice try? Go on say what politics Druckmann has that you don’t like I’m sure we would all love to see it.

@dark_knightmare2 Look man, it seems you enjoy arguing with total strangers on forums just for the sake of getting mad at someone, but at least have the decency to stop fishing when people don't bite.

Naughty dogs death comes with their next game.

@Arnna yes it is close to one of the worst written ..AAA games. It's forced and fake. Druckman made a huge mistake chasing away Amy hennig

@Gaming365247 There's nothing wrong with including "progressive" things in games if it is well written and not tacked on to win brownie points.

I have nothing against gay and lesbian people and you shouldn't either.

@Arnna huh? nothing you have said makes any sense in the context of anything I've said or responded to.

@dark_knightmare2 stuff bad before, so me no responsible, me just cog, yawn

@Texan_Survivor, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your profile pic of Joel from TLOU2? If so, that's ironic

1 word for Neil - KA-CHING!

@d0x360 by all means, keep dreaming.

@Texan_Survivor I love how you think using bullet points somehow makes your assertions anything but... baseless statements.

Who needs to watch comedies when the comment section under every TLOU2 post is comedy gold.

The people that think Naughty Dog are going to become an irrelevance are completely deluded and need to step out of their little echo chamber.

Just last week The Last of Us Part II cleaned up at a game awards voted for by FANS. It may also have won Worst Game of the Year as well if that had been an award as no piece of art had been so divisive in 2020. It's the gaming equivalent of the Black Lives Matter movement!

To some BLM is a sad but necessary movement that highlights how the right against racism is far from over and there's still a lot of work left to do, even in 'inclusive' countries like the US and UK.

To others it's a dangerous, racist and revolutionary movement founded upon far-left thinking and political beliefs. Oh and an example of certain people getting a bit 'uppity'.

The Last of Us Part II is the gaming equivalent. Even now I still can't understand why it generates so much hate. The people picking through it with a fine tooth comb in order to highlight every single fault could probably do the same with their own favourite games but they won't because apparently every other AAA game is faultless in all areas and beyond approach!

@clvr All the same, man, be seeing ya.

I kinda wish he didn't.

I want Naughty Dog to start a new IP. THEY NEED to give Uncharted a LONG LONG rest

I'm still just waiting for Cyberpunk. I'm not waiting for another Unchartered game. I want to play games, yes immersive games, but I don't want to watch books.

@get2sammyb "Some of you people have lost your minds."

You are presupposing they had them in the first place.

I just hope ND maintains or exceeds their output from this gen. Every time they put something on Playstation, its a new graphical benchmark. Come on ND vs. SSM fight to see who's top WWS so we can all win!

Too bad he is a terrible person who decided divisive identity politics was more important than making a good game. And I love how people say if you criticize what he did to the game you are toxic. This homogenous thinking is toxic. So is Druckmann. The majority of people did not like this game. Of course the woke/left out of touch game journalists thought this game was so stunning. However sales say otherwise. After the initial blind buys of the game based on the quality of the first game, sales fell of a cliff. I have never seen a Sony first party game drop in price so fast. It is permanantly at 39.99 and on sale for 29.99. Also at stores around the world there are hundreds upon hundreds of copies of this game collecting dust all, half off. And if you go to gamstat.com that shows how many people have played the game, it has barely gone up in 4 months.
Of course TLOU 2 is going to virtually sweep at the game awards as woke game journalists are weighted 90% to 10% players. I am surprised they didn't nominate it for best sports game with Abbey's golf mechanic. Lol. All I can say if they continue to put identity politics in their games, Naughty Dog is going to continue to lose vast amounts of customers.

@Col_McCafferty "First ND game without a straight white male as the lead and they can now go to hell or something."

People were excited for the game when they thought they were going to be playing as a lesbian for most of it, so I really doubt that's the issue.