Soapbox: I Don't Know How to Feel About This PS4-to-PS5 Upgrade Uproar

I don't have problem with $70 games, and with $10 upgrade from ps4 to ps5. Making games are expensive afterall.

If the games are worth it (like ratchet ps5 and demon's souls), I'll buy it, if it's not, either I'm not buying it or wait for a discount.

I think 10 euro extra for faster loading, haptic feedback, use of the adaptive triggers, ray-tracing, better graphics, 60 fps etc is worth it.

On the other hand, as long as there is a shortage for PS5's its fair to make the upgrades free, since not everyone has the choice to buy the PS5 version of a game straight away.

I just want to point out that the biggest games (Call of Duty, yearly sports games) do charge extra for upgrades on both PS and Xbox. It’s not just Sony and Sony wasn’t technically the first to do it (although launching PS5 exclusives at the new price was probably the reason others did it).

If Sony is charging $70 for their PS5 games I don't see why they wouldn't have the $10 upgrade. People would just buy the PS4 version if they didn't. Penalizing PS4 owners who can't upgrade is where the issue lies. PS4 owners should pay the same, not more.

That car analogy is…not good.

When he started talking about age and expectation I thought, yeah, that's it, though I've 20+ years on him!

The idea of free upgrades between iterations of platform is, relatively speaking, fairly new to me. I've bought the same films on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray just to get a better experience. Paying for improvement was normal for quite a while!

So maybe some of what I saw as overreaction to the whole HWF thing was unfair. I still think people need to tone things down a bit, though.

I don't care about the upgrade fiasco, I'm still not paying $70 for a game. I don't value them that highly. I didn't pay that for Demon's Souls, I didn't do it for Ratchet and I won't do it for Horizon or God of War or whatever. Especially since waiting like 2 months will bring it down to "normal" price on sale. I can wait.

No problem, as a PS5 owner, paying extra for the PS5 specific development. I don’t see why a flat fee should be charged (meaning PS4 players are subsidising me). £10 is OK by me for that.
I still won’t pay full price for anything other than physical though. No resale value with digital.

@get2sammyb I'm not sure it's right to compare PS4 -> PS5 in the same way as a graphics card update. It's not just a case of tweaking settings to get better graphics.

Devs also need to ensure loading is optimised (more so than just BC speedup), improve the sound and also support Duelsense. You guys do call devs out when this doesn't happen!

And no, before someone accuses me of it, I'm not defending Sony. I'm not defending $70. But as dev myself (not games, granted) I can see extra effort is required to get the best out of PS5.

@RedShirtRod is on point here. Agree with the extra $10 or not (I certainly don't, but that's another issue), PS4 owners were told their upgrade was to be more costly than necessary for absolutely no reason. Sony was just trying to see if they could get away with overcharging consumers.

Sony can afford to be arrogant atm, Xbox cannot. If the roles are reversed you will eventually get the same arrogance again. At the end of the day I really only care about the games. Sony's delivered so far, Xbox still needs to. Until then, I'll be gaming more on PlayStation. I'll be happier when both Xbox and playstation have high quality games on offer.

As for prices, you can't compare free upgrades from a third party developer to that of an in-house Dev. There are more long term quarterly financial variables to consider as part of a massive corporate structure. There's a reason big corporate companies have more complex performance ratings than start ups as an example...

I can assure you that these free upgrades are a lot more work than people think. Even changing a word in a cutscene script can bring game breaking bugs. I do think it's a bit unrealistic to expect people to pay twice for a game but I don't know if $10 upgrades are that big a deal. Also why are people comparing cross gen upgrades to GPU upgrades. The infrastructure differences of the PS4 and PS5 is not comparable to different graphic cards.

It used to be an okay practice, but now it’s just been outdone. It’s for free from everyone else. There’s also that $70 doesn’t sit well with me and many others. Particularly when you’re giving games that are held back by the PS4 after giving the appearance of PS5 only. It’s been manipulative messaging and nickel-and-diming, which is just bad.
Solution? Classic gamer move: complain. 😝

I haven't paid full price for a game since Horizon. I think I bought maybe 10 games at full price, out of 250 or so. I don't feel like doing it out of sympathy. I know too little about the cost of games vs Hollywood movies, but I simply wouldn't be able to afford my gaming hobby on the scale that I do, if I paid full price. I guess one could argue that people like me drive costs up, but there you go. Second hand for me.

I'm.... not going to say anything that hasn't already been said but I'm glad they rowed back on the original pricing plan and PS4 owners can buy HFW and have their copy upgraded on PS5, when they finally manage to get one of course.

Going forward Sony need to make things a lot clearer, for all concerned, even if this means stating that games from a certain point onwards will no longer be available on PS4.

I think the debate around a £10/$10 increase in PS5 titles isn't going away anytime soon. Is it justifiable? Some say yes, others no. If you day yes you can be labelled as some sort of Sony shill or cuck, say no and you're likely to be given a technical.explanation of why it is or just called cheap.

Everyone loves a bargain but at the same time I have thoroughly enjoyed most Sony titles on PS4 and hope the quality remains the same throughout the life of the PS5. If that means paying a little bit extra then so be it.

I don't really care what the competition does. Their main games don't appeal to me plus they're pushing, for better or worse, a subscription service. They make games in order to rent them to consumers. Sony make games which they hope people will actually buy and own. At present anyway, who knows what the future might bring?

But yeah, we should try and be a lot nicer to each other on this site. It's become a really toxic place and yet all we're doing is talking about gaming!

Edit - I was only going to leave a brief message (the debate this weekend has tired me out!) but then I went back on this, a bit like Sony!

Anyway, I did write plenty that has already been written so apologies.

@get2sammyb Nickel and dime. It's the new optics?

😝

Seriously though, increase your vocabulary instead of just lazily repeating the current buzz word or term and making out that in doing so the argument is won.

I play on ps5 and ps4 I really feel like the 10 for the upgrade is really justified if you play spider man miles morales on ps4 then ps5 the difference is staggering I feel it's worth the money

I don’t agree with the price increase for PS5 games.

I might have accepted it for the proper exclusives (only available on the PS5) but not for these cross-gen affairs. No, no, no.

But then, there are only what, three (?) or four (?) games currently that are only playable on PS5? Three or four of any worth at least.. Hopefully the upcoming showcase will reveal some more.

Sony increasing the price of their exclusive games only would have been much better for their image and reputation and would have avoided all of this nonsense.

My thoughts are PS5 games shouldn't cost more in the first place, did Returnal cost more to make then Red Dead Redemption 2 for example? There is no difference between this and PC where higher quality assets are already built into the game to support a wide range of hardware. If games are more expensive to make because of graphical fidelity then they should have already cost more on PC for some time. Then there is the very obvious elephant in the room that is Xbox who sell you one game for last gen, next gen and PC

Here's the thing. If the $10 upgrade fee is truly an issue for someone... then wait for a price drop. It's the exact same advice I gave when there was the uproar over some games releasing at the $70 mark. Have some patience... play through your backlog... wait for a price drop... pay less than the launch retail price.

I started this practice years ago when they started having complete editions of games release a year or so later. Just wait for the complete version.

@get2sammyb No, not in the UK it isn't but it is true that a few months back it was all about the 'optics'.

😝

Anyway, it's capitalism baby. Companies like to make money.

@carlos82 Yeah, if you look at the most expensive games to make for example, none of them cost more than other games at the time. It’s basically a non-argument given that companies are posting record profits year on year.

@Col_McCafferty People Better Hope Nintendo Never goes down the $70 Path But Knowing Them They Will Get a Pass.

@munstre yeah I played Metro Exodus and it was a great upgrade and also free

So the other thread about horizon forbidden ps5 upgrade had everybody chomping at the bit and it was getting a bit testy there for a while...and somehow its a good idea to start another one up..its like using petrol to douse the wild fires...wow

I play on all platforms by the by. But Sony don't have the deep pockets of Microsoft, so obviously they won't make the upgrade free.

Sony are also selling more consoles, so they're not under pressure, and hoping that the goodwill they've experienced will last a bit longer. Heck, maybe it'll match the evergreen goodwill Nintendo gets.

I don't really know what to say about this whole thing but I think I agree with @get2sammyb when all's said and done. And maybe PS5 games should've stayed $60 like PS4 to avoid all this confusion. Then again HZD is top-notch quality and HFW is gonna take that further, probably why I'm not that outraged. It's like buying GTA or RDR multiple times. Some games just get a pass. 😉

@munstre I can't say I played anything on PS5 that was much better than it

@Northern_munkey some men just want to watch the world burn 🤣

No need to play devil's advocate. It's anti consumer to not offer free upgrades.

I guess, regardless of how anyone feels, prices are whatever is felt people will pay for them. Same as always, vote with your wallet.

If no-one buys $70 games or pays for upgrades we'll see where it takes us. Either prices will drop or we'll just end up with a choice between a PC or an XBox. Then games can basically be written once and run on everything. Should be cheaper.

Though for me that would be a sad outcome.

@get2sammyb I believe Sony are doing this because they know they can, had the Xbox One been much closer to PS4 and Xbox come out with their current model, Sony would have had to follow suit. As it stands it likely won't matter, especially as so many make excuses on their behalf

@The_New_Butler Sony’s profits literally doubled between 2020 and 2021. Doubled. Ironically, the very vocal fanboys on here are the ones ignoring how well Sony are doing for themselves.

@fR_eeBritney i like it..🤣

@munstre played most things up to Resident Evil Village which I enjoyed, Miles Morales was pretty fun and Astro Bot was probably the best I played. Metro Exodus probably had the best RT I saw on console

@AndyKazama I take it you mean specifically software upgrades? And software upgrades that only offer easy-to-code speed and graphics updates? Because if I were a games developer and you asked me to do more than that for nothing extra, I'd tell you where to go.

@The_New_Butler And some see no justification at all. It's a balance. You need to produce big profits or your investors sure as heck are not going to let spend billions developing the next big thing. I work in software, I can tell you for sure you don't get to do new and exciting stuff if you aren't already making decent cash with what you have.

I'm NOT saying the balance is right! But it's not as cut-and-dried as some think.

For £70 games would have to have a lot of content. In my eyes 16-20 hours of content is not worth 70 quid. Not matter if its ps4 or 5. I get with increasing costs etc. $70 in America is only £50 roughly and in the US you don't get taxed for games so there's a big difference. I recently the new ratchet and clank game and it was really graphically pretty but the levels were short so not worth the money plus the majority the game was taken over by a different character. But that's a different argument. I ended up trading the game in and got about 80% of my money back from the trade in.

@nessisonett i've been very vocal about sonys pricing policy on the ps5 games and even said on a couple of occasions that even though i could afford to pay full price i wouldnt because i think its not right and there was no real justification for the hike..all i got was insulted by somebody who basically questioned what i do with my income and also questioned my moral stand point..i still think the prices are too high and i buy them when they are cheaper and i think the £10/€10/$10 prices for the upgrades are fair enough as opposed to no upgrade path at all for ps4 owners who end up (eventually) being able to own a ps5...at some point prices will drop and all this will be a distant memory..i hope..

Personally i didnt ask for a programme that makes a character blush or that adds "hero lighting" into my life, so why should i have to pay extra for it? Why cant game studios work to a budget that makes sure the game comes out at £60 with a reasonable profit margin and innovate within that budget?

If they want to piss about being super realistic thats up to them, but piss about with your own cash, not ours!

I take slight issue with the sentence "consumer expectations have, on the whole, been altered. If the same game is on multiple platforms, you shouldn't have to pay more than once"

Only issue I have here is that we're not really talking about "multiple platforms" at all. For PC, Steam and GOG and Epic Games are multiple, completely different platforms - and as such I wouldn't expect to have access to a game for free on Epic Games or GOG just because I've bought it on Steam.

PSN is just one platform. Sure, there are several sorts of hardware supported (PS4 and PS5 being the main ones) but the same could be said of all the PC platforms - a Steam game needs to be able to run on endless different hardware configurations - and they're bringing out their own "console" the Steam Deck (looks a bit like a Switch clone) which will also play all the games you'd otherwise only play on PC

At the moment PSN is the outlier in that both Xbox and PC platforms just sell you a game, and let you play the best version that you can (via smart delivery on xbox, or via graphics settings on PC) on anything as long as it meets the minimum required standards. At the moment it's only really Sony that's selling games to be played on specific hardware (or via backwards compatibility).

The upgrade fiasco doesn't affect me so I can't really speak on the matter, I buy most games for PS4 AND PS5, just like I buy most games on PS4/PS5 & Switch. I bought Miles Morales, Sackboy and Resident Evil Village on PS4 & PS5, will be doing the same for HFW, God of War & Dying Light 2. Why do I do this? I just like owning games on multiple systems, especially games I know will be great, plus I also have some friends who either can't afford to buy a lot of games OR just don't have a PS5 yet, so whatever the case; they can just borrow them from me. Also sometimes I just buy games just so I have them, sometimes I buy games knowing one of friends will want to play it, even if I have zero interest in said game.

Do fashion forums contain infinite pages of people arguing about whether a pair of Levi's or Nikes should cost £60 or £70?

Gamers are a pedantic bunch, that's for sure.

the only reason it's in place is so they can keep face and maintain the ridiculous £70 prices for PS5 first party games

Very tricky as for a UK consumer, the price rise from £50 to £70 has always felt too big a jump. So in UK 10 quid charge from £50 ps4 game is still cheaper than buying a ps5 version!! Add to the fact that resell price is higher for ps4 version of games as there are so many more ps4 owners, it makes a very strange situation. I honestly think that if they had the £10 upgrade option for horizon from the start, there wouldn't be anywhere near this uproar. Wanting people to buy a whole separate version of the game is mental and at least they walked that back.

@Col_McCafferty "walking things back" is the other phrase du jour. Used to be called reversing a decision !
The one that really gets on my nerves is "day and date" , which just means on the same day.

There's a "lot to unpack"

(Punches self in face)

Anyone claiming they won’t pay $70 for a video game please remember when you said you wouldn’t pay $60 for a video game. Because you know you said that! And the beauty of it is you can stick to the PS4 and still pay $60 for the games. And even if you go PS5 you can still stick to the $60 PS4 games. Better frame rates and faster loads will still be there. Just not as fast as what you’ve saved $10 to not have.

@SJBUK honestly now, from a developer's stand point, what is harder ?? To bring a game to PS5 ? Or bring a game to PS4 ? You have less hardware constraints, the need of optimization on PS5 is not the same like on PS4, am I wrong ??

My thoughts as a ps5 owner.... I don't like ps5 are priced more ,After releasing record profits again and the ppl paying out all this money for the new ps5 console we shouldn't have to pay more for the games we want to play on it and have already paid for , it's like I'm being taxed because I wanted Thier latest offering ,I paid for better graphics the whole bang when I bought the ps5 they didn't say btw when you have it it's gonna cost you more to run the games you want on it than it did to play games on your PS4 ,yes it's only £10 but I've paid out £450 for the console ,
those who aren't lucky enough to get Thier hands on a ps5 yet have extra expense to upgrade thier loved games ,those who have mentioned Xbox yes they have the right idea I buy the console and play upgraded Xbox one games right away ( even Thier save files without messing around )

@CynicalGamer what is this change in infrastructure ?? They are both x86 systems, they use the same API and same underlying OS(BSD). Because of the SSD ?? Most devs even don't take full advantage of that yet just so they don't brake their cross-gen games. Most devs have less optimisations to do because of less hardware constraints. On Sony's side is another story because they don't release games on PC, most of their engines are limited by the hardware constraints of the PS4. Why consumers should pay for their shortcomings ? You want to shift to 70$ than shift all cross-gen games to 70$ and that's that. But there is no reason to pay extra 10$ when most of the work is actually going in to the PS4 version because of the optimisation to make it work properly.

Honestly, this is clearly an issue that will cease to exist once cross-gen stops being a thing. And I really hope it happens sooner rather than later. We need to stop getting games that are held back by the weaker hardware.

Another actual quote he said that might be more why people are getting pissed off is:

"Speaking to MCV last September, Sony Interactive Entertainment CEO Jim Ryan said regarding Horizon Forbidden West's PS4 announcement:

No one should be disappointed. The PS5 versions of those games are built from the ground up to take advantage of the PS5 feature set, and we have an upgrade path for PS4 users to ger the PS5 versions for free. It's about people having choice. I'm really quite pleased about the situation"
https://youtu.be/PdS8WUbOv9M?t=506

I might just wait until the next lockdown and hope they'll give the complete edition free. 🤷‍♂️

@Shepherd_Tallon The most sensible and in-between comment that I've read anywhere regarding this topic, kudos sir.

@carlos82 The upgrade price for next-gen console features should be included in the hardware and not the software. We're literally paying for hardware features now for each first party titles, which should already be included in the $500 console as advertised.

Astro's Playroom
Demon's Souls
Destruction All-Stars
MLB The Show 21
Returnal
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart
Sackboy: A Big Adventure
Spider-Man: Miles Morales

That's Sony's entire 1st party launch lineup. Of those, FIVE are PS5 only, one is fully multiplatform, and only TWO actually got that free PS4-PS5 upgrade Jim Ryan said they made a commitment to provide.

@BrainHacker my sentiments exactly, the hardware is paid for, so why are we being charged again to use it

See...that's a nice way to spin it isn't it...for £10 extra (10 dollars doesn't translate to £10 btw. But be thankful we're not being treated like Australians) you get two versions...the PS4 and ps5...so stop being so entitled. Back in my day if you wanted two games you had to pay for both games... Yeah that's a lovely spin. And does have those questioning the pricing look entitled.
But what if you aren't looking to upgrade the next god of war GT ect...you're buying it for the ps5 out right. You're still being charged £10 more than the PS4 version of the same game...only now you're just getting one game instead of two. Only now the charge is purely for taking advantage of the ps5 hardware you already paid for to do such things. This isn't entitlement. Never has anybody here ever bought a console and then been made to feel they're being entitled before for having games take advantage of that console. So maybe things have definitely changed.
But this guy hit the nail on the head 'Future first-party titles from PlayStation Studios that launch on both PS4 and PS5 will charge a 10-dollar fee to upgrade. I've seen a lot of outrage over this decision, but I think it's a fair compromise. If Gran Turismo 7 costs 60 bucks on PS4, pay $10 more and you'll be entitled to the PS5 edition too. That's a darn sight better than paying $60 for one copy and then $70 for the PS5 equivalent' - this is exactly what I said would become the narrative. Just remember...Sony aren't just charging a £10 upgrade fee...they're charging £10 extra for ps5 versions on these cross gen games outright.

@AhmadSumadi you're talking absolute rubbish, I own hundreds of games and have never paid £70 and paid around £60 only once when I pre ordered Red Dead 2 digitally

Yes, a reasonable response there. However, I think given the vast majority of PS4 owners have not upgraded to the next generation yet and given Xbox policies, Sony cannot afford any more of this bad publicity. Frankly, as someone who got the PS5 bright and early, I fear now I may have been too hasty. Between the Xbox games pass, automatic upgrades and the bizarre fact the Xbox plays CDs when PS don't (even though Sony co-developed the CD) I feel like I'm on the wrong train

PS5 games should be PS5 games , PS4 games should be PS4 games. PS5 is backwards compatible so it's not even a big issue . Having a ''PS5 upgrade'' is nickel & diming , IMO , PS4 games don't look even remotely bad or play bad . it's not like were making a leap from early PS3 to PS5 - or even PS2 to PS3 .

If Sony would have said from the outset you can buy a ps4 copy and then upgrade for £10 when you have a ps5 it would have prevented a lot of this.

That car analogy was pretty bad though.

Well at least this fiasco is over and from now on it's just a $10 upgrade every time. People can move on now.

@SilkySmile89 Yes, you are right, you have less constraints. But that doesn't make it easier unless you're creating the same game you'd have created on a PS4.

Now, quite rightly, people expect more. You're expected to provide more content, better quality content, better AI, full 3D sound, make use of haptics etc. etc. You simply don't get all of this extra for free. It's more work in planning, it's getting used to new and maybe more complex APIs. Different ways of doing things. You're not just running the same code on a faster CPU and better GPU. You have to do things differently to get the most of the new hardware.

It's a healthy mindset to not expect anything for free. I don't think that's an old way of thinking at all. I always just saw a free thing as just a nice surprise. Another thing to keep in mind is that companies don't give out free things for nothing in return. The good PR alone is enough incentive sometimes for a business to give out free things.

I'm just glad they have officially set their foot down on how they are handling releases in the future so there is no way people can be shocked when they realize they don't get both versions for free. I don't want to wonder how the cross-gen setup works every time Playstation releases a new game.

And while it's not as nice as free I'd take a $10 fee over Nintendo's backwards compatability, which is "Oh you own this game? Buy it again full price!"

@get2sammyb Maybe send Sony a message you rather have a gold edition on day one and games that are broken on release with some monetization on top.

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi You can still do that buy the PS4 and play through BC. 😉

@Shepherd_Tallon I guess I'm much the same, I don't play a huge number of games and those I spend most time on are on PC.

PS Plus works for me because I get a load of games to try and doesn't matter if I get into them or not. I play GT and Burnout with the kids now and again and the odd Lego game. Next true PS5 purchase will probably be GT7, though will pick up R&C RA at some point.

I can wait for true next-gen PS5 games, at the moment I'm happy with the boost I'm getting from going from a base PS4 to PS5.

@BrainHacker Why should the hardware pay for the upgrade? Thats the stuff companies lose money with or just sell it without a loss.

@The_New_Butler I think Sony have been in the game long enough and successfully enough, to know what they're doing from the point of view of generating revenue. They've just shown they can and will change track when they feel it necessary.

Just for the record, I haven't paid more than £50 quid for a game in my life. I haven't paid more than that because I haven't found a game I consider worth it!

I don't agree with £70 games, so far I've waited on a sale for all the PS5 games I've bought rather than paying that.
I fully expected Sony to be doing what Xbox's Smart Delivery is, just without the marketing term.
I also think Sony know our expectations perfectly well and are trying to get away with whatever they can knowing they can backtrack if there's enough fuss, like they've done.

We all want games that are bigger, better but we dont wanna pay and we want workers to get paid a honest wage and yet we expect free upgrades.

• Sony does no monetization or almost nothing.
• Games are released with high quality
• Besides the Collectors Editions we get no gold editions or liveservice crap but finished games.
• Expansions are high quality
• No broken messes of games no releasing and finishing afterwards.

With the SNES i payed €76 how long ago was that and i totally believe that the budgets are not getting smaller.

@Flaming_Kaiser Why are we even paying for next-gen console, If not for the upgrades? For me, when I purchase a game, I know I bought it for the content and not for the hardware features.

I’d rather this than microtransactions and carved out DLC. Just my opinion though.

@BrainHacker Why do believe you have to get it for the same price. Im not gonna type my whole story again. Look above if you want the full story.

Everyones favorite Shawn says it all games are getting insane expensive. So pay the €10 extra or wait om a discount.

Or hope you get your firstparty games full of monetization or with a Ubisoft sauce release broken fix later with a menu that would look great in a free to play mobile game.

If i look at MS games even the Firstparty the all are monetized.

I just want a viable, fair upgrade path from my PS4 games when and if I get a PS5. Horizon's initial cross-gen distribution strategy was structured in such a way that it punished PS4 owners who didn't shell out a premium before even getting the opportunity to purchase the game. It was unfair, and Sony was right to change it.

Paying a $10 fee to access PS5 upgrades for PS4 games I already own is fine. Obviously not as pro-consumer as Microsoft's approach with Smart Delivery, or even Sony's approach last gen with cross-platform purchases, but it's fair given the inflated price of PS5 games, and, unlike with what they originally planned regarding HFW, it doesn't punish me for grabbing the PS4 version first.

Clearly the budget of the game cant be an issue.

Because they are still selling a version of the game to a significantly larger audience for a lower cost. So clearly the $60 price tag would be fine. If it truly was an issue of budgets, then it'd be $70 on both systems to accomodate.

Some good reasoned discussions on this from both sides on these comments, which have finally dragged me in!

Firstly, no one in their right minds really wants to pay more money than what your used to paying, but the simple factor is games - especially the type that Sony tends to invest in - cost ALOT of money to make.

I know wheeling out Covid as an excuse is really unfashionable now, but one factor that no one has considered is the sheer costs of keeping everyone employed, whilst being in all likelihood half as productive as they would've been otherwise! Just check out the credits on TLOU2... scrolls on ages!!!

The next factor is working conditions and crunch... I think there is a fair bit of hypocrisy from some peeps on here that are super quick to "shame" Sony when these stories break, but comment here that they don't want to pay more.

Like it or loathe it, Sony are sticking their necks out here on costs (they don't have MS's seemingly limitless covers). Record sales say otherwise, but it is burning a fair bit of the hardcore fanbase goodwill from the PS4 generation...

@SJBUK But for a 3rd party developer those are just gimmicks. It's just additional work that not many developers are doing. Especially because of the competition. PS4 had the touchpad and six axis and almost nobody used those. I'm not a developer but the ideea behind 3d audio and RT, you have dedicated hardware that can calculate everything and you don't need to fake it or bake it in like before.

@Flaming_Kaiser We already paid for the next-gen features from the hardware. Why do we need to pay again to enable it?

Days Gone, Rift Apart and Returnal had bugs as well. So you cannot use that argument for the $70 price tag.

I get it. You see this pricing strategy drama from the business side of things because you like their products. But as someone who plays on different type of gaming system. I don't get the price hike or the upgrade fee considering I don't have to deal with this kind of BS from the other platform holder. (Probably except Nintendo)

@Royalblues, really good point about mictotransactions. Sony have for me been excellent at their attitude towards not shoehorning these into their games. I'd rather this approach, then adverts appearing in game, and mtx's rammed in like gatcha games...

@BigBirdy if Sony is short on cash they should cut their loses. I'm talking about their mobile division that only hemerages money. Join PS+ with PSNow, hire the guys who made the PS3 emulator on PC and just make a proper emulator for the older consoles on PS5, and then they can stop the PS3 Streaming farms, that also is a waste of money, and finally they can make PS+/PSNow available in all territories that they have PSStore already available. After all oh this, Sony won't need to nickel & dime for 10$ on cross gen games or crunch studios.

@SilkySmile89 Just gimmicks? Fair enough. If you do not use any of a platforms unique abilities then I agree, seems like not much more work for the devs. In fact, given you get a nice boost with BC, why even bother with a PS5 version at all?

When people talk about a PS5 version I had assumed they are talking about more than a bump in frame rate and tweaked graphics. Games can and do get criticized if they don't use these 'gimmicks'. Whether you want to believe it or not there is extra work to do. You have two platforms to test on, for a start, because some of the code will be different. That's not free. We all know what happens when you don't test properly!

But I'm just a software developer with 35 years experience, what do I know

@SilkySmile89 Please note the first part of my post where I imply Sony is being arrogant somewhat. I just think it overblown.

As consoles become more like computers, Microsoft is in their home territory. Sony needs to catch up there still. They have to pay to bridge that gap.

Also Microsoft can afford to take a loss on gamepass and have their games on pc, xbox, etc. It's a much bigger risk for Sony given they need to sell their consoles as well and don't have the financial cushion that Xbox does. Their only alternative was a partnership with the likes of Google, Amazon, etc to counter Gamepass. So yeah we are possibly paying for ps4 limitations. Putting all their games on pc will affect them negatively and lead to more people to not get a PS5. It is what it is.

@SilkySmile89 Regarding architecture, I dont think you understand how testing architecture works. Ps4 was using generic engine code. The pipelines have changed for PS5 to leverage it better. They could have stuck to generic engine code. But these new pipelines will lead to more effiecient coding workflows eventually but Devs still need to master this. And yes the SSD needs additional coding given that accessing memory advantages needed this. Not all games use it but some do and that matters.

It’s simply when you look at a product if you think it is to expensive for what it is then don’t buy it.
If enough people don’t buy the product normally the price can come down.
If you think it’s a good price then buy it.

I wasn’t going to buy a brand new car as I thought it was to expensive. I got £4000 off and an interest free rate. So I then thought that was reasonable and in my price range and purchased it.

We all have our own buying rules and points of what is acceptable. You just agree or disagree and vote with your wallet.

@get2sammyb That's what I never understood, why not make the ps4 versions 70$ instead of going through this mess? It makes no sense at all.

@SJBUK yeah I don't think people on this site all quite understand how coding works when making transitions between generations. They complain about crunching but don't realise that their complaints about free upgrades give headaches as well.

Edit: At least according to my game dev friends.

My only gripe, and this is coming from being a amateur game developer, I don't think it's right to charge $10 extra for what is essentially turning up a dial on effects and resolution. I have no problem paying for what I believe is a good game, and it's extra content, but putting a game on it's ultra setting for $10 isn't something I'm interested in or think is an ethical business practice.

Why do people praise Xbox and smart delivery?
You only get higher graphics and higher fps. Xbox series is like a Xbox one pro+, nothing new exept stronger. It's like a pc, buy new hardware for better graphics and higher fps, but other than that we doesnt have it.
Almost all third party games that Xbox stamp their smart delivery on also get better on ps5, some even better when developers include haptic with more on ps5.
Yet Sony get trashed but Xbox praised only because Sony doesnt stamp a word on it.

@get2sammyb

Honest question, why do you still write for a playstation site. It is mostly negative all the time, seems your heart is somewhere else.
I completely agree with you that Sony should keep the promises they made at first. You can't change half way, and they should be called out on that. But other companies do the same thing but seem to get a free pass all the way through. Nintendo never gave a free upgrade. Breath of the wild and Mario kart 8, donkey Kong tropical freeze are the exactly the same game on both Wii U and switch, and everyone gives that a free pass just because you it's Nintendo. Microsoft has game pass and do the upgrades better. But then again, they are no saints when it comes down to getting money from their costumers. They did want to increase the price, and someday you can count on it they will.

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi well that’s your choice to wait until the games drop from full retail. If your complaint is that you won’t pay $60 or $70 for a game because you intend to wait for a sale that makes perfect sense. But I remember the same anger when games went from $49.99 on PS2 to $59.99 on PS3 and everyone swore they’d not pay it. Then the console launched and everyone paid it.

“However, the paragraph that seemingly suggests the upgrade would come at no extra cost doesn't quite say that.”

Just curious why anyone feels it’s necessary to defend companies fine print…

Let’s face it. The entertainment industry is moving away from this kind of customer treatment pretty quickly. Sony can learn from these blunders now or 5 years from now but eventually they’ll move away from paid upgrades. It seems like the fans are just asking them to make that change sooner rather than later.

I don't mind $70 for future exclusive PS5 games as they'll cost more to make. I don't mind paying $20 for an expansion but the extra $10 for cross-gen visual improvement is the problem, to me. Imagine if Steam made you pay $10 per game in order to up your settings when you upgrade your hardware. That'd suck.

I realize that those features are already in the game on pc and with these games, PlayStation has to port them. Still the improvements are minor and if the game focused on PS4 for development, then it didn't cost as much as PS5 games will to make.

I will keep it simple, fans should never side with corporations no matter how much you want ro swallow for your favorite company.

We as gamers should determine what is value and what isn't. The fact we had to react to Sony greed, shows that they're falling out of touch.

I think i paid $60-70 for strider on sega genesis and the same for super Mario bros. 3 on NES. Game prices have not gone up that much after 20+ years considering so many other things have gone up significantly in price.

@AhmadSumadi not really no, I generally never pay more than £40 and usually a lot less if I'm not buying it near launch

Ahh, the age old dilemma. To vote for Christmas or to not vote for Christmas. What's a turkey suppose to do?

@SJBUK I don't say that it's not extra work. But I'm only referring now at cross-gen games. Nobody is taking full advantage of the PS5 even Sony, especially now with there ports of GOT or Death Stranding, are just patched PS4 games, and that's what HFW will be also. Especially because this game started development on PS4. If Sony wanted to increase prices for games, just make 70 for all cross-gen games.

Do not look back to see how many games on PS3 got "free" PS4 upgrades. Paid upgraded games meant you buy it again. Just like PS5 it was very hard to find a PS4 for the first year. Know whats really going to hurt? That first PS5 ONLY game.

the 10$ upgrade is fine, people just cry because they don't want to spend 70$ even though they spent over 500$ on a ps5 that they barely use.

No one has to pay $70 for HFW. If it’s a free upgrade from PS4 to PS5, just buy the $60 PS4 game and get the upgrade for free.

@Culjoseth i wouldn't be shocked if they let people preorder hfw for 60$ for ps5.

I’m not surprised at all about Jim Ryan backtracking on it. I expected it
it’s cool for people who want to play the PS4 version and then later play the PS5 version again but personally I have a PS5 and I don’t get why some people who have one go on a tantrum in every article about a PS4 to PS5 upgrade for incoming games. Or maybe I do.

Anyway why is the press pretending Smart Delivery is perfect and refuse to denounce it’s unacceptable glaring flaws?

Sony could have a more consumer approach for people who want to play both PS4 version and PS5 version for some reason but I m glad they don’t have the same smart DRM delivery.

Edit
PS5 games price is a different topic than the upgrade from a PS4 game.
Sure I’d like them games to be as cheap as possible and I prefer discs.

Sony is going to regret this fiasco, gamers have a long memory.

Yes they fixed this but as Microsoft adds to the AAA pile, the more consumer friendly MS platform is going to gain traction.

I’ll say it there is also some hypocrisy with the outrage there was about Horizon and GOW announced as cross gen titles. What a fake tantrum that was everywhere. Na we want next gen only.
Oh but now it’s all about ‘think of the PS4 owners’ 🤷🏼‍♂️

I’m not up to date with X-Box start delivery, do X-Box owners have to pay for upgrades to Series X? It would be nice for Sony to allow free upgrades but £9 isn’t going to break the bank.

PS2 -> PS3 didn't have upgrades but did have extra options to smooth out the graphics built into the PS3 and that was a nice feature.

As for PS3 -> PS4 don't remember any upgrades?
The PS4 to Pro upgrades are because they share the same API and OS so that's a straightforward addition to include with the PS4 release.

Now we're at PS4 -> PS5 and we have all these "should be 60fps, ray-tracing and 4K visuals" on a PS4 game. If you want those features, give us a few quid and that'll make it financially viable.

@JJ2 What are smart delivers flaws? I haven’t looked deeply into and just read good things about it, so I’m curious about your opinion on it.

@Jaz007
They have Xbox 1 disc and sell it as a SX boxed game. It’s heavy DRM.
When I buy a boxed PS5 game I’m expecting the PS5 game to be on the disc and able to play offline from the get go. I don’t want to find out it’s a PS4 disc inside the box and that I have to download the PS5 version. It’s basic consumer right.

@SilkySmile89 I guess part of the problem is that this thread has turned into a discussion about all-sorts rather than just upgrades.

On the topic of upgrades, I would expect a 'free' upgrade to consist of ensuring a boost in performance when running a PS4 game on a PS5 in BC mode. Though this might be a big ask for some, depends in how the game is written.

From that point on, what do you class as an upgrade? I can pretty much guarantee most devs have already come up with a long list of things they'd like to with their games on a PS5. They'll be arranged in order of effort and perceived benefit. Some might get done for free, a tweak to a scaling algorithm, changing assets to higher quality ones you already have. Some as an up-skilling exercise, getting familiar with what the PS5 offers.

Beyond that, it's a compromise. Do you slow or stop work on the next project? Do you prioritise PS5 upgraded features over bug fixes or new features? How much can you really afford to do for free? This will vary from developer to developer.

Devs don't stop when a game goes out. They're immediately onto the next thing whilst simultaneously supporting the stuff already gone out. It can be hard work and I do not begrudge them making money out of it. The question about who gets what money is valid but a different discussion, I think.

@SJBUK it's worse that Sony backflipped. These should have just said it's not a launch game so you will have to pay a fee or buy it again. Personally any games I had on PS4 I finished as PS4 and never got upgraded versions, I don't see the point of playing a game again. I can understand some people might buy a ps5 halfway through the game, but then why not just wait. Put you big boy and girl pants on and manage your sh14 people! 😉 I did, so can you. Wait to Start a experience correct, on PS5 if you are close to getting one.

Game Pass is a loss-leader and likely unsustainable at its current pricing. They're trying to get people onboard, then up the price (same as Netflix, Spotify et al.). Microsoft is very much a services company now, with GaaS simply augmenting their current SaaS and IaaS offerings.

Remember that not too long ago, Satya Nadella nearly closed the Xbox division as it was losing money hand over fist. Microsoft have the resources to sustain something like Game Pass to get members signed-up, but it's not sustainable forever. Plus, the non-Microsoft Studios games aren't on forever. GTA V was barely up for a couple of months.

I hasten to add that I was a primarily Xbox gamer last-gen and get Game Pass Ultimate for free with work, so I'm not bitter, just wanting the argument to be on a level playing field.

@Barryburton97 ...I hate the phrase "think I'll double dip"....makes me cringe every time lol 🤣🤣

@wiiware Rachet and Clank was not worth $70 that's for sure, it was flashy graphics and nothing more the rest of it was average. Glad I borrowed it.

Free would be better but from a business standpoint it does make sense if you look at the patter of 1st party games the PS4 version is £59.99 and the PS5 version is £69.99 if the upgrade is free why but the PS5 version the upgrade fee is paying the difference

@PlayNation5 the last Quarterly results say different as gamepass helped increase Microsoft gaming revenue by 11% and offset a decline in 3rd party revenue from titles like Cod, Fifa and Fortnight with people no longer in lockdown anymore. Also have to remember that Game-pass members spend a lot more on games than non members.

@Legionari True if you know you getting a free upgrade people would just buy the PS4 version. Think the question is PS5 versions extra £10 cost justified over the PS4 version.

@Deadcow "What stinks about this is that Sony has DOWNGRADED HZD" Where did you get that from? If that's from the devs I've missed it. Do we know they had the PS5 version ready and delayed it to downgrade to PS4? Have they chopped stuff out of the PS5 version? I honestly want to know if I missed something (quite possible).

Under normal circumstances, I would have no issue with charging more to upgrade. If people could simply go to Gamestop, take a ps5 off the shelf and buy it, there would be no problem. These aren't normal circumstances, though. A LOT of gamers may be stranded on ps4, maybe through 2022 even. It's not anyone's fault (except for the scalpers, who can die in a fire), so why punish gamers who want to buy your games but simply haven't been able to get their hands on a new system?

@Deadcow I guess I'm confused between HFW and HZD. But my understanding is both were developed initially on the PS4, with extras added for the PS5 later. The HZD upgrade is free isn't it? Has got good reviews. HFW looks improved on PS5, so I'm struggling to understand what has been downgraded.

@armondo36 I think 'punished' is a bit strong. You can play it using BC mode on the PS5, usually at higher fidelity and framerate. So you'll get some benefit for free anyway.

The expectation of a free upgrade really is a very recent thing. I suspect it'll come back to haunt developers as they'll be forever tied to providing something for nothing.

@KingPev yep, immediate long term prison sentence for "double dip", as a minimum.

@InvaderJim To each their own I guess, for me (and many playstation gamers) ratchet and clank is worth it, I'm about 8 hours into the game and still only 40% according to the save file, I'm getting my money's worth 😃

And I still plan to platinum it so maybe the game will be 20-25 hours for me, which is just right.

@SJBUK again, under normal circumstances, I would agree completely, but it just felt like Somy should have been more considerate in knowing how many people don't have the ps5 yet. Upgrade charges make sense normally, but at least for 2022, they should work harder to give loyal customers a break here.

I don't mind paying $10 for an upgrade. My issue is not having the option from the get go. I think they could have avoided most of this outrage if the $10 upgrade was part of the initial announcement. But they instead tried to force people to either buy two copies of the same game, or pay $80 for a $60 game, without any idea when they can actually get their hands on a PS5.

@armondo36 I see where you're coming from, from a personal point of view I agree.

What I don't think people are considering when it comes to designing and developing non-exclusive titles, is that a lot of them from their inception need to target multiple pieces of hardware. All Xbox games now have to work across 2 generations of console hardware (of which there are 4/5 models!) AND PCs which have a near-infinite level of variability. Designing for that breadth of hardware is almost assuredly taken into account from the beginning.

Sony exclusives haven't had to really do that to nearly the same degree. AT MOST they've needed to target 3 pieces of hardware (PS4, PS4 Pro, and only recently the PS5). That HAS to be a totally different allocation of resources to make things work technically, all built-in from inception of the title.

Sure, Sony has their games releasing on PC more commonly in recent years, but those are ports generally released months or years after initial release. It's a different development process (and afaik not even done in-house yet).

What's interesting is, I don't think Sony WANTED God of War and Horizon and GT to need to release on the 4 at all. I think they totally expected them to be 5 exclusives. I think Covid and the chip shortage has forced their hand in making them available on the 4 because not enough customers (of which there are clearly more than RECORD SETTING numbers of) with 5s in their homes. And to that end, I think Sony, like their PC releases, is essentially back-porting these titles to the 4. I don't think Horizon and God of War and the like will be held back, in any manner, by releasing on the 4. I believe they're optimizing and targeting the 5, with someone else (or simply another internal team) tasked with making them playable on the 4's generation.

To that end, I don't think it's wild to ask for $10 more dollars to get the PS5 edition. I think more work is going into making these games cross-generation than usual. However, with Horizon specifically it seems like a raw deal, 'cause their wording definitely felt as though it'd be released soon enough to get a free upgrade. And not having a path AT ALL was simply a dumb idea. I'm glad they rectified it, as buying the same game twice would have been super dumb. At least they came to their senses.

@cherryghost41 Ok, yes, I'm about to be pedantic. We are not being forced to buy two copies of the same game. You can buy the PS4 version and play it better on the PS5 with BC later. It's a personal choice if we buy the PS5 version at a later date. We are not being forced to do anything.

In my (probably arsey) opinion (that 99.9% don't give a shiny ***** about) misuse of emotive language is rife in online forums these days and results in bad feeling and misunderstandings where there doesn't need to be.

Back in my box.

@art_of_the_kill

I agree but considering how constrained suppliers are right now (Toshiba flat out stated that they won’t be able to meet the current level of chip demand until 2023) I don’t see how Microsoft or Sony could move on until these things are reasonably available in retail stores. Considering the craziness around the PS5 since launch with these supply problems it’s likely it would be at 25 million sold by now had Sony been able to meet demand.

In that alternate world, there probably wouldn’t have been many cross Gen releases. But with the current realities facing these platform holders, it makes good sense that they are attempting to provide these games for last gen since most customers can’t even get a PS5 or Series X.

I got hella lucky. I got one through Wal Mart at launch. My friend wants one now since he’s played mine finally but I told him that it’s going to be a while. Late 2022 or early 2023 before you can walk into any store and buy these things. He’s not like me; he’s unwilling to play the online roulette especially since he has a PS4 Pro.

Director's Cuts and expansion packs charging for the extra content I understand.
But charging more for an "upgrade" to a console that already is out at the time of release, just feels like nickel and diming.

In isolation a £10 charge seems remarkably good value to upgrade, unfortunately it is not in isolation, Sony seems to be oblivious on how bad it looks in comparison to Xbox, games £10 cheaper, the simplicity of installing upgrades - you don't need to it does it automatically, the conversion of save game, not needed it does it automatically, not being able to accidentally install the wrong version and on the PS5 the absolutely cripplingly small internal drive space, the NVME expansion farce, the redesign of the heatsink is a bad look, desperate pennypinching and the biggest danger to Sony, gamepass, it really is a killer app.
Playstation only has one big advantage, exclusives, if there are a couple of badly received big tentpole exclusives the PS brand could be in big trouble.

@Deadcow Ah, no problem
I was just reading about an interview with Mathijs de Jonge, quoted on IGN , where he apparently said "development on Horizon Forbidden West has used the PS4 console, and so it’s designed with that hardware in mind".

So I wonder if right at the start the intention was to develop on the PS5 but that just didn't happen? He then waxes lyrical about the extra water effects etc etc they can do on PS5.

More confused messaging.

You don't need to have an opinion and take sides on every issue in the world. People online will pressure you to feel the need to "educate yourself" about countless issues and most of them are pointless to get riled up about. Have some thoughts. Move on with your life.

@Deadcow ...I believe Microsoft

@twitchtvpat It’s currently $70 on the store and on Amazon, so I think maybe the $10 is worth it for the box saying PS5 😂😂😂😂!

@get2sammyb Couldn't have said better myself. That's I am requoting your entire comment for memory/archival purposes.

"SJBUK That's fair enough, but then you look at companies like 4A Games and what they did with Metro Exodus, and you're just like... Okay, what's your excuse Sony?"

@get2sammyb said "

It just reeks of nickel-and-diming to me. I do understand these games have exorbitant budgets, and I respect that, but I read Sony's financials every quarter and they're not exactly hurting for cash.

I understand they want to drive the market towards $70 games, so they will argue the $10 upgrade from PS4 to PS5 just brings things in line. But we live in an age of PCs and even the PS4 Pro, where it's expected that games scale with your hardware. No one buys a new graphics card and has to pay $10 to take advantage of it.

Honestly, if Sony thinks the games are worth $70, then just make the PS4 versions $70 as well and offer a free upgrade as part of the fee. If this is really the hill they want to die on, then so be it..."

Best reply for archival purposes.

@get2sammyb Why Sony need an excuse for not participating in the race to the bottom of game prices? Their games are selling well enough allowing them to experiment with the pricing.

On the other hand, if Sony had a product like Metro Exodus, that's been on permanent sale for a very long time, and then decided to upgrade it to PS5 using the technology already existing in a PC version, then yes, that kind of upgrade is expected to be free.

@RubyCarbuncle
"no Consumer should have to buy the same digital game again just so they can play it on a more up to date Console."

They don't have to. PS4 games work on PS5 perfectly fine. I see no reason for your stated disgust, other than desire for free upgrades.

Just buy the game for the console you want play it on. I have not time for multiple playthroughs. I also have no interest in playing a game again for some bells an whistles.