Update: The row revolving Naughty Dog’s work environment has rumbled on, with ex-animator Jonathan Cooper sharing a huge Twitter thread on his experiences following Kotaku’s crunch expose. In the messages, he mentions that a friend was “hospitalised” after the team worked heavy hours to prepare for last September’s The Last of Us: Part II preview demo. He also insinuates that the developer is no longer able to attract the best talent as its poor reputation for staff retention is notorious among professionals.
“Ultimately, Naughty Dog’s linear games have a formula and they focus-test the shit out of them,” he said. “While talented, their success is due in large part to Sony's deep pockets funding delays rather than skill alone.”
Vice president Neil Druckmann, almost certainly motivated by the above, posted the following message in response earlier today: “Even after years of working on it, I’m still blown away by the animation in Part II. We have one of – if not the – best animation team in the industry, both in raw animation skill and technical knowledge. Can’t wait for you to experience their incredible work.”
Original Article: Naughty Dog games are, generally, a cut above the other titles you find on consoles – but that comes at a cost. The company has been consistently called out for its challenging crunch culture, and a new article published by Kotaku reveals that little has changed behind-the-scenes as the Californian studio wraps up work on PlayStation 4 exclusive The Last of Us: Part II.
While we’d encourage you to read the full story, it touches upon the team’s perfectionism; while overtime is never mandated, it’s expected that all employees are workaholics. “You feel obligated to be there later, because everyone else is there later,” an ex-developer revealed. “If an animation needed to be put in and you weren't there to help the animator, you're now blocking the animator, and they may give you grief.”
This has, allegedly, resulted in high staff turnover: “This can't be something that's continuing over and over for each game, because it is unsustainable. At a certain point you realise, ‘I can't keep doing this. I'm getting older. I can't stay and work all night.’” Alarmingly, the report claims that around 70 per cent of the non-lead designers and artists who worked on Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End have now left.
Of course, when your goal is to be the best, there’s always going to be a degree of sacrifice required; the expectations for Naughty Dog games are sky-high, and it may not be feasible for it to release the type of titles it’s known for in a timely manner without crunch. The developer’s yet to issue a response to this story, so we’ll just have to wait to hear its side.
[source kotaku.com, via twitter.com]
Comments 117
At the end of the day, they can’t change crunch culture unless we, the consumers, stop expecting games as soon as possible. While we all grumble about a delay, that might mean the difference between staff working 100 hour weeks or working normal hours
On the one hand I’m sympathetic, on the other there are a ton of uncommitted work shy lazy idiots out there. Sh*t or get off the pot, there are plenty of dedicated people behind you. Few months of crunch as a project winds up is fine in my book as long as you’re properly compensated and it doesn’t last forever.
I don't think it's healthy for naughty dogs to continue like these, maybe sony can intervene and send insomniacs staff to teach ND some tips for more healthy developer culture since I heard insomniacs is pretty much no crunch company.
I'm still buy naughty dogs games day one though 😃
But yeah, all of the big AAA games of the year contender is made by crunching to get there, tlou, uncharted 4, the witcher 3, god of war, red dead 2, etc. I don't think they can make big game of the year type by working normal 8-5 pm job.
I do have some sympathy but at the same time I'm sure anyone that applies for a job at a Naughty Dog or a Rockstar knows there's a high chance they'll be working really long hours at some point.
As long as people are rewarded for their efforts I'm not sure what more can be done. As fans we have little say over release dates anyway so it's not our responsibility to say "take your time, we can wait".
This game has been delayed before, maybe it could be delayed again BUT this won't mean no more crunch. It would just postpone it until a later date.
@nessisonett I agree, either games take far longer to come out or we carry on as before. But I suspect a lot of people wouldn't accept that, publishers want product out as soon as possible plus we as a community are always itching for the latest news on a game or trailer then finally release.
And it's not just a gaming problem, it's a collective society one from Amazon day one deliveries to Movie blockbuster VFXs.
@M1359 it’s just dedication and pride in what you do. At the end of the day do you want to look back at what you did when you retire and know you put in 100%? You shouldn’t be killing yourself over it of course but if you want it to be worth something there has to be some sacrifice. It’s the same with having kids n stuff. I’d assume. I don’t have kids.
I don't think there can really be any excuse for the crunch. I mean if they need more work hours just hire more people, delay the game or just decrease the scope of it.
There are a lot of people outside this industry sharing empty impressions left and right. You can't just generalize it. You don't know what's actually going on over there. If true hope there's fresh pressure on management to tone things down. It worked for when it happened with Rockstar.
It all amounts how passionate some employees are. In most cases no one forces them to stay. And the rest feel compelled to follow suit. When you work depends on other colleagues it creates this chain and you simply can't go ''yeah, well I worked my hours for today".
There are many employees who've got no one to go back home for. So they fill the void with work. There're so many shades to this whole thing. Nothing's black or white. You can't just talk about a group of people and treat them as a whole. There are individual situations with each of them. And not just in the games industry, but everywhere.
You can bet that there will be reviews of this game that bring up the crunch and knock it for it. I saw it happen to RDR2 and it will happen to this too. It's yet another reason why I just can't bother with reviews for games anymore. Too much personal bs gets put into them now.
"It may not be feasible for it to release the type of titles it’s known for in a timely manner without crunch." Then they should take longer to release them. I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say I'd rather the devs have a reasonable work schedule and get the game later than having them work 60-80 hour weeks to get a game faster. This pseudo-sweatshop nonsense has no business existing in the 21st century.
Japan's anime industry is worst than this.
https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/7/2/20677237/anime-industry-japan-artists-pay-labor-abuse-neon-genesis-evangelion-netflix
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2019/06/23/films/japans-anime-industry-crisis-despite-popularity/#.XmuFjy2B28g
“If an animation needed to be put in and you weren't there to help the animator, you're now blocking the animator, and they may give you grief.”
That's kind of on the animator. If the animator chooses to stay late and you don't, that's on the animator. If they give you grief, then that's their problem. That's the risk one takes when volunteering to stay late. I understand the desire to be a team player, but that's a two-way street.
If you put in your required work for the day and made all your obligations for the days work, you did your job. What other people do and don't do outside of your obligations is entirely up to them.
If it's an issue where work hours are completely off schedule, that's on management to sort out. If it's an issue where some animator is all gung-ho and wants to stay late and expected you to follow suit, then, sorry, but take the risk of being blocked mister/miss/missus animator - that can wait until morning.
I think this guy has a personal problem with naughty dog, i mean there is a tweet last year when he received a trophy un naughty dog for being 5 years there and he said he would love to work there for a long time, and yet he already knew about the crunch culture in the company but didn't say anything. And in one of the recent tweet is that he said that actually he didn't crunch that much. And just when that guy from kotaku publish that article he is complaining now? Seems fishy.
People need to stop defending companies because they like the end product. Naughty Dog seems to need workaholics to create games and that's just not acceptable. Animation wise we've been racing to the bottom for a while now and it's putting pressure of developers and their lives to make it so, because companies now seem to be able to go under after one delay or slow sale due to the costs involved. Not even sure if it's possible to dial it back at this point.
The passage in the article that broke my brain:
"Many development studios try to solve problems like these with a production department—the part of the team dedicated to organization, logistics, and communication. It’s a producer’s job to keep track of what people are working on, coordinate across disciplines, and ensure that the whole team is staying on schedule. At Naughty Dog, there is no production department."
After the backlash you've received in the past, not to mention, the people quitting in droves, maybe, get on that. What Naughty Dog champions as "creative freedom" seems more like anarchy based on what we've read.
The crunch culture does seem very unhealthy for the workers involved. With workers feeling pressurised to work extreme hours, it surely must be a horrible place to work at.
Unfortunately I don't see this situation improving. As long as the crunch culture is better economically for the company than to delay the game, nothings going to change.
"I can't keep doing this. I'm getting older. I can't stay and work all night.’”
Quite the job then. You obviously already knew what the entails, so why on earth would you take the job? A lot of people work at lot harder for a lot less, and don't get to sit on your ass all day.
Funny how this sort of stuff alway come up right before a game is due to be released.
Hard to judge a situation like this w/o knowing all the facts, and you'll never know all the facts w/o having worked there, or in similar industries. And by similar industries I mean any job sitting at a computer all day. I'm sure there are plenty of jobs where people work overtime, a lot of it unpaid. I don't think that happens as much in the EU/UK as it odes in the US, but a lot of people over here get paid 35 hours per week but can easily put in 40, 45, 50, if you're in upper management. We also usually only get 2 weeks vacation you guys get like a month. Lots of jobs here also don't have sick days, we have PTO - paid time off - that you can use either if your sick or want to go on a vacation, but it's 1 set of a limited number of days.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3056830/how-the-us-employee-benefits-compare-to-europe
So while ND jobs may look awful, they may not look awful to somebody who works somewhere else over here. I can't even tell if they are getting paid overtime or not. And there's a big difference between - work overtime or people will make fun of you - and - work overtime or you're fired.
And then there's bonuses. I'm pretty sure we don't have "13 month pay" in the US. Never even heard of it until now. Just spent 20 minutes trying to find out. Anybody in the US getting paid this? No it's not a bonus, it's govt mandated. Chrismas bonus in other countries are 14th month pay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_salary
Anyway, my son is a high school senior, who applied to several schools to get a BS degree in video game design. 1 school would cost him over $100,000 over 4 years. Much of which would wind up as student loan debt. When you have that much student loan debt you probably feel obligated to work as many hours as possible to pay it off. Any of you EU/UK guys have $100,000 in student loan debt you need to pay off?
We're the land of indentured servitude over here. We all work a lot. At every job. Most people unhappy working at ND are also going to be unhappy working anywhere else. We're an unhappy lot.
@nessisonett this has nothing to do with consumers. Developing as quickly as possible lowers costs. That is the primary motivation.
Just out of interest, how many 'delays' did Uncharted 4 get? When was the original scheduled release and how many month's later did that game arrive?
One thing Sony has been good with - even if it leaves us 'disappointed' at the time, is delaying releases to give their developers the extra time to ensure the game is 'ready' to release. They may overlook a 'small' issue here or there, but overall, Sony's exclusives are perhaps the most polished and 'ready' to release games on the market. Many other Publishers release games and then have to fix them for the next 6months+ of patches...
I would be surprised if many creative media types don't have deadlines and pressure increasing as those deadlines near. Whether its getting a game ready, you art collection ready to show, a book written, a film made and getting the perfect shot, making a newspaper/magazine with a regular deadline to go to press etc. Its not just the gaming industry....
@JoeBlogs I hear you, but you earn respect at work. Too many entitled people waltz into a job, act the big man, complain that they don’t get paid enough and spend half the day on their phone. Prove you’re a truly valuable asset and most companies will bend over backwards to keep you happy.
(Sorry I’m basically venting about something in my personal life at the moment, I just realised 😂😂)
Stop dropping release dates until the game has gone golden. The consumer has no other option than to wait & be patient..
@youreyesonly00
Quite right, personally I think it would be great if games were announced maybe 1 month or earlier before release, perhaps after going gold even. How exciting that would be to hear GTA6 is out in 4 weeks!
However it's not the devs who decide this sort of thing, rather the marketing boards etc for the actual business, who probably have no idea regarding actual coding, but are far more interested in release windows and building hype.
@youreyesonly00:
I feel like this would help too. When The Last of Us Part II was reveled in at the end of 2016(!), everyone (or maybe just me) assumed it would be out in a couple of years, because why would the reveal something they had only just started working on? Holy-- that's exactly what they did, isn't it? -_-.
If our first glimpse of this game was at E3 2018, would fans have said "Pssh, I'm not buying this now! You should've given us a vague trailer two years ago!"?
You can't really "shadow drop" a AAA title of this caliber because too much money is at stake, but three years is NOT necessary.
@rockman29 Unions? They exist in the US? Thought that made you a commie 😂😂
Pretty sure this is why Team Bondi (L.A. Noire) closed down.
@wiiware From Software would disagree...
@nessisonett we, the consumer, don't expect games as soon as possible. people were fine waiting 7 years for cyberpunk — if they weren't, anticipation wouldn't be through the roof and people would be calling it vaporware. last time i checked, that hasn't been the case. being impatient has no bearing on the timeline, otherwise final fantasy 7 remake or final fantasy xv wouldn't have taken 10+ years. this is not something we have any control over anyways. the only ones who have control are the publishers. do you believe that sony wants a game to take 7 years to develop (under better working conditions) and the enormous costs that would associated with that? this a systemic problem plaguing the gaming industry from top to bottom. all we the consumer can do is support the games we want to support, and let's face it, nobody is going to boycott a highly anticipated game simply because it went through development hell or crunch time (since that applies to nearly every AAA game in existence).
Extended crunch is poor management and free reign artistic handling in my opinion. Crunch on projects is sometimes inevitable, but bearing in mind the release date for TLOU2 has been moved several times, they must have been crunching an awful long time.
Maybe the 70% of Uncharted 4 workers that left did so because they were sick of working on Uncharted games and wanted something new. Probably pretty easy to get another job when you have TLOU or Uncharted on your resume.
I wonder if this would result in the talent pool being disrupted. I used to think Naughty Dog was a god, but after Uncharted 4 have the feeling they aren't necessarily going to be a cut above anymore. If it's unsustainable it sounds like is going to backfire and negatively affect the games' quality.
And it is terrible to hear about the employees.
And regarding knowing what you're getting into. It's hard to have job security in game development, if this job opens and you need one, I imagine it would be hard to refuse regardless of conditions. Then they become over-bearing because life outside of work exists and you leave.
As for us being responsible, we get hit with delays all the time anyway, what's a few more really? We'll always complain and there will always be delays. So I don't feel responsible.
"Alarmingly, the report claims that around 70 per cent of the non-lead designers and artists who worked on Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End have now left."
Kind of ironic that those remaining people are working on The Last of Us, then.
@Ron22 Hell final fantasy remake was announced years ago & people are still hyped to play that!!. Patience builds hype..
@Ron22 They said from the very beginning that the game was "super early in development" most people in the know knew it wouldn't be coming till 2019 at the absolute earliest. It's actually common for Naughty Dog to announce their games very early in development anyway.
Why is it binary between delay and numbers of hours worked? Why cant naughty dog employ more people and just take a hit on the profit?
If you cant handle the work/work load/whats expected working there then find another place to work. Simple as that, not trying to be mean but in the rest of the "Working World" thats how it is.
@Jaz007 lost legacy > uncharted 4
@nessisonett I couldn't agree more. A games get delayed, people moan. A game isn't polished enough when it is released, people moan. The only possibility for most studios is to have a long crunch period.
Well I would say some of the blame is on the developers for announcing games years in advance, instead of announcing the game say 6 months b4 release. Then we the consumers have to take some blame too.
Ultimately if they want to avoid crunch they need to have opening after hours for their office and close up overnight. Some people will work too hard if there is a pile of work in front of them and the opportunity to do so and others go see them doing so and feel pressurised by it.
Ironically they are usually all completely fine with someone who is getting a reasonable amount of work done in their contracted hours.
I work as a Test Lead for a company in the USA thru an outsourcing company, this outsourcing companies are making a lot of money since they are charging a huge amount of money, but this money is only for them, see, If I was working directly for this US company my salary would have been a whole different story, so working as a contractor and working extra hours is never good, as an employee you need to have a balance in life, so you can enjoy your personal time, otherwise live to work is just not right.
I once received an email by mistake from the company I do the work for, not my employer ok, but from the company I do work for, they mentioned my salary as $50 dollars an hour as a QA Test Lead, let me tell you, I don't even get paid a full day with $50 dollars. So the outsourcing company is pretty happy with me right!!
So make sure you enjoy your life with your love ones, it is not worth to spend extra time, companies don't appreciate that, you re just a number to them.
These articles from game sites about crunch need to stop. This is not news, and all these people are willingly working at these companies. No one is forcing them to stay if they don’t like the crunch, just like any job in America.
@nessisonett I don’t think it’s necessarily about the consumers wanting it faster, as it is with the company, in this case Sony. Sony can’t just keep paying out naughty dog for ten years to make a game, and expect to make a profit back. That’s really what it’s about.
I bet it helps that they are working on great games that everyone reveres. It would suck a whole lot more if you were putting in all that time and effort to make a mediocre game that everyone has forgotten within a few weeks.
@M1359 This! I work as an auditor at a big 4 company. From January till April i work average 70 hour per week ( 6 days 12 hours). For some periods is even worse.
Why does Kotaku (or others) always come up with this type of story just before a game release? I remember RDR2 stories or Quantic Dreams stories.
If it's only in the phase just before releasing a game, that sounds fine. If it's a bad culture all the time then why wait for a game release to talk about it? 🤔
@Rick_Deckard Why don’t you talk to the company who you’re working for about moving on their staff. It sounds like it will be cheaper for them and more profitable for you.
@Ryall That would be the ideal move, I will, believe me.
I see nothing wrong here, just journo activists trying to cancel Naughty Dog now.
Yeah, that 70% probably includes many employees that got "Let go" after they no longer needed them. I had no idea that the games industry was so oversaturated with job seekers until hearing about this clear cut 'profit beats welfare' issue because it got so big. Where dat union at developers and designers?
@M1359 lol Just because you accept uncomfortable and unfair conditions that will compromise your health, doesn't mean everyone should. Capitalism clearly relies on people like you, willing to break their backs to lead a semi comfortable lifestyle. Where was the time for the "life"? Secondly, this is not the same thing. A lot of these employees simply signed a waiver at the beginning of their employment and had no idea their job security would be under consideration if they refuse to work these ridiculous hours.
@Jayofmaya well said.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L Not really, as I stated, there are actually a lot of people desiring to work in the games industry. They leave, they have to search out another job that tons of others after. Indie devs don't pay much and big publishers screw you.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L that is sort of hard to do when the entire industry is backwards in this regard. what do you do then? work at mcdonald's despite having considerable experience and education in some element of video game design? forfeit all those skills and barely make your rent? what a naiive comment
@youreyesonly00 What's your reasoning? I haven't played it because Uncharted 4 didn't convince me to.
Oh look, it's Jason Schrier again. I knew who'd written it before I even clicked the link. 🙄
"Crunch" isn't unique to this industry, it happens in lots of jobs/industries, but it's hardly surprising that a hacktivist journalist isn't familiar with the concept.
Had it myself multiple times working as a programmer at a direct marketing firm, with clients constantly changing their mind and requiring changes/improvements at the last minute because they didn't like something, but couldn't give more time because expensive advertising campaigns were paid for and starting on locked dates. So I/we needed to get in early, leave late, and sometimes even work through the night. On a few occasions, I'd turn up in the morning, work through the night, then through the next day until "home time".
No, I didn't enjoy it... but I got paid for it and did quite nicely out of it, and didn't go crying to the media about it. And if I had, why would they care? I'm nobody. Joe Public has to work some overtime. Big deal. And for the average Joe, it happens year round, year-in, year-out... not just for a few months every 3-5 years.
The only difference between this guy and me/the rest of us is that, because he's in an industry which gives him a mild form of 'celebrity' status, the media is interested.
@PSfan4Life22
Exactly. I can already imagine Kotaku TLOU 2 review full of metaphors about Joel/Neil and the Hell they live in haha
That RDR2 review was a beautifully written SJW piece.
I don't understand why the article and many commenters are so unapologetic about this, it's a terrible practice that always gets chastised when done by other companies but hey, we cannot criticize Naughty Dog, can we?
Also, to all those who say the devs knew and wanted this, ok, it might be normal to crunch to a degree, but doing it constantly is not ok and that shows in the 70% of artists walking away from the company.
I think all of us should try and crunch for a month before saying "yeah, they knew about it and it's a normal thing to do".
There are so many games releasing each and every day that I don't think we as consumers need this.
@rjejr Actually most places only give 2 weeks. Most student debt will end up around 40-50,000 dollars. My friend can earn no more than 50 hours and sometimes does around 70 as an assistant manager even, only for face an a potential raise to manager, he's been doing this for over 5 years. Excluding the double debt, why do you think it is so different in the UK? Those sites you read are obviously not thorough in their research. Can't speak for the rest of Europe, though.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L sorry but not everyone has the same luxury as you did. simply drop everything and go back to school for an entirely new career while you are in the middle of paying off a mortgage, supporting a family or simply trying to survive in a ludicrous high cost of living scenario which many people face these days. your strategy simply is not realistic and does not add up. this is not about me disagreeing with your view. it is about you lacking a human side and any sense of understanding or empathy for real world situations. you come across as a survival of the fittest and that is an incredibly self serving attitude to have when we are talking about people and real world problems. at the end of the day, even if some people find ways to leave their gaming careers behind, someone else will fill the spot and the cycle will continue. the point is, we need to find solutions that tackle the root of the problem.
@WanderingBullet Didn't know about that. Seems even worse and I will keep in mind. Thanks for sharing.
@Paranoimia Given that you’d finished the project and were making changes based on the clients request. What do you think would’ve happened if you’d only done what you could in normal office hours and resubmitted it with less additional work done?
@Jayofmaya I think it's so different b/c I've had charts like this burned into my head since grad school in the 90's.
You may say it's not different, but that looks different to me.
@Ryall The project was never 'finished' until you got final sign-off from the client. They'd tell you what they wanted, and by when, and deadlines were usually tight. So you'd do what was necessary to get it done, with time to spare if you could in case of any changes.
Then they'd look at what you'd produced, and often decide that it wasn't quite what they'd envisioned, and ask for changes. We did have 'normal office hours', but it was a given that you'd sometimes have to adjust to suit clients. You soon learned that a few extra hours here and there early on in the job, even if voluntary/unpaid, would save you a whole lot of stress further down the line. And our projects were usually only weeks, occasionally months, long... so we had 'crunch' pretty much throughout the year, not just a few weeks every few years.
Had we done only what we could do in normal hours and not put in the extra time to meet the client's requirements, I suspect the company would have lost a lot of clients, because the simple fact is, if you're not willing to do the work, there's someone else who is.
Granted, a company making a game is working only for themselves, not a client, so the situation is a little different. But as an employee, the same is true... there's always someone else willing to do what you're not, often for less money.
Don't get me wrong, though... I'm not saying that it's okay to treat people as slaves and expect them to "do it, or be replaced" - but it does irk me immensely that some people in the gaming industry seem to think they're the only ones who have ever had the inconvenience of extended hours disrupting their home life.
Updated.
Plenty of people work harder, longer hours for much less money and praise. I'm finding it hard to sympathize.
Having gone against my better judgement and actually read the article, I feel that this one paragraph is probably the most telling, and pretty much renders the rest of it irrelevant:
"Crunch culture at Naughty Dog isn’t a secret. The studio is open about this mentality in interviews with new hires, and its managers deliberately seek out perfectionists in art, design, engineering, and all of the other disciplines that make games happen. The type of people Naughty Dog wants to hire are the type of people who will willingly stay late at the office in order to make their games better—the type of people who would take the time to make sacks of grain deflate when you shoot them. At Naughty Dog, nobody asks the developers to crunch. Nobody has to ask. They’ll be there anyway."
If you were aware of what you were signing up to, why are you complaining?
@Porco maybe suck it up and do the work. In time you'd move up the ladder. Unfortunately far too many are entitled cry babies who expect the world without having to put in the hard work.
@Kafkaesque ah, playing the victim game i see. "i live a miserable life which means other people should live by those same low standards" mentality. carry on then and don't try to find solutions when there is clearly a problem here.... sigh, the number of self serving individuals on here is rather high
for the record, nobody ever said that there aren't problems in other industries. but seeing as this is a video game website and the subject was on inhumane conditions in the video game industry, that is what were are discussing right now. it doesn't always need to be about YOU.
Here is a thought. Gamers collectively quit being a bunch of whiny turds that fall apart over delays. The internet warriors exacerbate the crunch. And the first qoute about Sony's deep pockets is rather controversial. If they are sooo deep then why the crunch? Methinks a combo of the community at large and perfectionism within the studio. Media Molecule didnt crunch a damn thing fyi
If you have Naughty Dog on your resume, I am sure you would have plenty of opportunities to move to a smaller company. Seems like many do this as ND is a great learning and professional development experience but very difficult to stay at for long periods of time.
@Porco Sad little brainlet. I was referring to people who work in care and the health service for very little pay and awful hours. Were not all as narcissistic as yourself, kiddo. Seems I touched a nerve, huh?
@Paranoimia Exactly that. Its stated that crunch isn't mandatory. What the whingers are effectively arguing is that they want everyone else to not work so hard so they won't look lazy. If they can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen
Anyone else find it hilarious that Jonathan Cooper is talking about he is glad to be working with the best but guess where he is now............. EA lol
Cry me a river. I genuinely don't care and neither does Jason Schreier or anyone here pretending to give a damn. I've done my share of 80+ hour weeks just like millions of other people have, all without complaint or the need for anyone White Knighting. ReesetEra is that way ->
@Shigurui Spot on
Are they being forced to work extra hours? Everyone who has had a job has had to work overtime at some points in their life. I just have no sympathy at this point.
Anyone who committed to working on a major AAA title like TLoU II knows what kind of undertaking they are accepting if they take the job. If they didn’t feel they were up to the task, nobody is holding a gun to their head saying they must take the job.
@CmShepard - Snowflake culture mate, it winds me up. There are many things in the world to get riled about. People working OT in warm offices isn't one of them.
@Jaz007 pacing was very good, set pieces, environment/treasure, & the villian motive..
Looks like Naughty Dog is in the crosshairs now from these activist journalists now.
Not happy unless they're cancelling someone, are they. Let me know when they spend 6 months living in a trench in Nowzad.
"You knew what you signed up for!"
Yep, so did they, difference is I'm not a victim and I don't complain about it.
Sign me up as another that doesn't care.
Ummmm... Push square just said "shit"! Weren't we told to watch the language??? I personally don't care what language is used, just want to know where the line is for article writer and commenter
@kenyowa The sweatshop reference is not a good or fair one. You're comparing the production of a lasting body of art and the opportunity to demonstrate your ability on a global stage with being paid a sub-living wage to produce socks for cheap sale in other countries.
Smacks of wanting to have your cake and eating it.
You want to work for a world renowned studio and produce games that people will still talk about reverentially in years to come? But now you realise there's a payoff and these games were made not just through the talent of the team involved but by working harder than their competitors?
Please, pretend you never heard or understood the phrase about genius being 99% perspiration... work average hours, make average things.
I wonder how many extra long hours doctors and nurses are expected to work to help fight the covid-19.
How many people have to work long hours in multiple jobs just to get by?
My heart bleeds for those who have to work long hours in their dream job must be hell
Wow at the comments. Didn’t expect the lack of empathy for your fellow humans. It’s a Video game, they should need to put in these hours - People with such hard views on work ethic and equate hours worked to a good work ethic haven’t a Clue.
America is terrible for working conditions - for a fully developed country.
There are plenty of studies and proof to say giving work force proper leave, sensible hours and sick pay - increases output, loyalty and creativity.
It’s so old fashioned and backward to expect 60 hour week and no leave.
@rjejr That must be outdated, unless you're counting sick pay, which you shouldn't as no one should be phoning in ill if they're not. It's 14 days minimum.
@Kafkaesque No, actually a lot of the time people never "move up the ladder" as you put it. Area managers will pick the most likely to stay on as managers and managers do the same for assistant managers and so on. What do you expect to happen then? Economic growth at all time low? Check. Living conditions at their worst since the great depression? Check. Nothing happens, except a few shifts of lower management now and then when they find a gap somewhere else to manage or supervise. Maybe you need to look at the sustainability of the current economic model and re-evaluate your opinion.
I'm struggling to see the benefit of making someone work at a computer for that length of time. Their work will slow and they'll make mistakes. Hire more people. That way there's no bad press and you create more jobs, surely?
Can someone explain to me why companies don't do this? Or is it simply that they are too indoctrinated by the uncompromising ideals of capitalism to see the human cost here?
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L You say "You" made a poor life choice by studying for something before realising that the position you worked for would basically demand slave labour. Yet you don't realise that is just not how it should be and we shouldn't have to rely on industries standards (especially when it's obvious that they care not for the general work force) but our own humane standards. Perhaps you are too far gone and believe everyone should be sleeping 6 hours or less and working the rest of the time for an undefined amount of time before they can get something better.
Oh no, how unfortunate that armchair developers on higher wages than public service workers are in lovely cushty offices all day and get free meals every day have to work a few extra hours when times get tough like any other job.
My Mum was a nurse and worked more hours and worked harder than any Naughty Dog developer and she never sought out legal action or demanded change as she knew it was what her job entailed, just like how these Game Devs know what their job consists of.
I find not a single slither of sympathy for these lot, every job has crunch involved, get used to it.
Snowflake culture is on a mad one right now.
If you're really bothered by this story then it's simple: don't buy the game.
Same with others. I mean, you think they're not crunching like mad at CD Projekt Red ahead of the release of Cyberpunk?
It's not ideal BUT these people aren't slaves and some obviously think the hard work and sacrifice is worth it. Should it be necessary? I'm not sure, maybe, maybe not. I remember watching the extras on The Lord of the Rings and seeing how hard Jackson and his editing team were working on the final film, working long hours into early morning and beyond, trying to finalise the final cut ahead of its Premiere.
Art can be tough.
@Jayofmaya If it's outdated you should talk to your government, b/c this is their page right now. I'm assuming it's up to date b/c it has a COVID-19 banner at the top. It says 28 days.
https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights
If you have something that's newer, by all means, please provide a link.
Here's an entire page of links, you can start looking there. I look at a few of them, they all say 28 days.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mandatory+paid+vacation+days+uk&oq=mandatory+paid+vacation+days+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.5471j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
These workers are crying too much, they were told about this before they joined Naughty Dog... one of the best if not the best games studio on the planet. What did they expect? Naughty Dog aims for perfection and top notch games. They act like they don't get greatly compensated for their hard work, and trust me these game designers get paid well. Plus, Naughty Dog is not the only top studio to go through crunch time... you have Rockstar, CD Projekt Red, Ubisoft and so on.🙄
@R1spam Very rarely can development issues be overcome with bruteforce. Typically, adding more bodies actually complicates things bc you end up w/ more 'completed' assets bundles. Any of which may cause conflicts when combined w/ other assets.
Think of it this way: it would be faster to have an individual employee for each condiment at a fast food joint. Other than wage costs, why don't they? Because for each person you add, you increase the potential for human error. Even during peak periods, they'll ramp up the number of stations, but still have a limited number of people at those stations.
Jonathan Cooper really changed his tune he was all praises! I could see how he started changing on twitter a few weeks before he left. I'm guessing he never got his own way because he sounds very bitter to me.
go to Rockstar Games/Naughty Dog/CD Project Red/Sony Santa Monica & you have to work your ass off! why the games are so good why do they go to the best studios? do they think they will be chilling out all week? go do something else making great games is hard!! tired of whiny devs now. Kotaku seems to love these stories a bit too much.
I've experienced crunches more than a few times in the IT business...i can tell: it is devastating on your (mental) health, family, and social life. Literally sleeping on your keyboard. In the end it's not your own free will, you are pressured to go all the way. And you know what: it doesn't improve your quality of work at all. The opposite actually, so although i love Naughty Dog's games i totally agree people leaving for ongoing extreme overtimes. So for me: it's a steady 9 to 5 for some years now. I don't care if anyone thinks it's not ambitious enough. I rather get old.
Well at the end it seems this was blown out of proportion, yes there is crunch but not as exaggerated as Jonathan cooper claims. Did you guys saw the tweet between naughty dog workers complimenting each other, and one which calls out Jonathan for lying and taking out of context about the reason why one the worker at the company got hospitalised which didn't had anything to do with crunch. Seems like this guy has a personal problem with naughty dog.
What a world of hypocrite we re leaving in these days.
On one hand we criticize a company who ask their staff to work longer hours for the last couple months of production and are being remunarate generously and offer them bonuses... etc
On the other hand we are clothed head to toes by products that are most likely manufactured by forced children labour in developing countries.
They are poorly paid, most likely malnourished and who never get compensate for Xtra time.
😔😔😔
@SaikoWaifu2003
😂😂😂 This is not damage control. I have worked 60±hours/week for the past 25 years and I know a thing or two about good or bad practices in a work environment since I am a union delegate at my work place.
I am not defending anyone but as I said these guys at ND are paid top 💵.
The national average salary for a programmer is $82000/year, ND pays them $112000/year. They pay every Xtra hours accordingly to the law.they also give great bonuses. There is nothing dirty about that and bear in mind these crunch periods are usually between 3 to 6 months.
I totally understand they get burned out and yes promotions go to those who work the hardest but guess what, it's the same in every single industry .
Talk to anyone who work in a hospital, in the catering industry, construction workers...etc and you'll see what hard labour, poor working conditions and low remunation means.
@locoism25 You can take Ubisoft off that list of yours. You’d have been right a decade ago when they were trying to do yearly releases. Ubisoft have since change their policies so they now delayed games rather than crunching to a damaging degree.
You right about Rockstar and CD Projekt Red they still crunch. The strange thing about the naughty dog situation is that most of Sony’s internal studios don’t crunch.
@SaikoWaifu2003
I did not realize that you work in the video game industry. I myself work in the catering industry so please accept my apologies for my lack of empathy towards this situation and i know I'm old school but
I agree with you that an employee should be rewarded above all for the quality of his work.
These crunch times you guys are referring,
are they budget related or simply due to poor management??
@SaikoWaifu2003
70% turnover within 4 years is clearly something unusual and alarming.
As you said I had the misconception of believing crunch time was just happening on the finish line.
Well, i have learned quiet few things today.
@Uoman seems a reasonable answer and get that every additional individual adds opportunity for error. I personally am in the boat I'd rather wait a bit more for the game to be right rather than rushed.
@kyleforrester87 Thats a nonexcuse look i love Naughty Dog games. But maybe we should put money managing workloads. And maybe games should be a little more expensive. Maybe there should be a part 1 and 2 and no liveservice. Maybe we need more small games too reduce the massive workload not only blockbusters. Working allnighters is insane and working people too the breakingpoint too. Hard work is not only heavy lifting.
@Ryall Yeah now its 2 instead of 1 year and what do get a broken mess with terrible content. Im against crunch but FFS those games are a joke.
@DonJorginho My mom and dad worked from 6:00 untill 23:00 look that people have little too no choice but too suck it does not make it right. 👎
They’re making TLOU games every 7 years. Thats a system cycle y’all. Or, one game every ps5 or so. 100 hour work weeks for 7 years is CRAZY unreasonable. On the other hand; people can forgive and forget alot for 104K a year. Even a 100 hour work week. Not me though.
@Mince that’s fine, just know there are people behind you willing to work harder for the same position. Sometimes you have to go the extra mile. 70 hour weeks on the run up to the launch of a prestigious major game is nothing to get your pants in a twist about, in my book. I am not saying it is fair that doctors/nurses etc should regularly have to work in excess of their contracted hours just because of staff shortages and what not.
@Chryssy75 @SaikoWaifu2003 @clvr @Jayofmaya @SonuvLiberty In kotaku report it says 70% of designers (for a total of 14 person) that works on uncharted 4 leave, not 70% of all ND people. ND have 316 employees according to google.
That makes more sense.
70‰ of the total workforce seemed highly excessive.
At the end of the day, we can always improve working environments and practices for sure.
ND are not monsters but they clearly need to rethink their management structure.
I know Sony does not like to interfere in the studio structure or philosophy but if one studio has the same problem, then something has to be done especially when you don't hear that kind of things from the other studios.
@Chryssy75 We actually hear this kind of things happened to other studios like rockstar, cdpr, bioware, retro studio (when they're making metroid prime), and others. Studio like insomniacs that rarely crunch is unfortunately the exception, not the rule.
But yeah, it will be nice if ND can change. Insomniacs rarely crunch but they're very effecient at releasing games, they make ratchet & clank ps4 in about 10 month while making spider-man and VR games for oculus.
@wiiware yeah I know, it's right there in the article.
@kenyowa This would help to some degree but I think work ramping up towards a deadline is always inevitable for software development, from my experience anyway
@kyleforrester87 LMAO... you are actually being serious? I thought you were being sarcastic.
@JoeyBatz1 stone cold
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