Those of you old enough to remember the name Jack Thompson will recall a time when video games were considered Public Enemy No. 1, and various politicians and campaigners were forever lobbying to get them banned. It’s all gone quiet on that front lately, but Detroit: Become Human’s controversial “child abuse” scene has really caused a stir – and now we’re back to the old days again.
A Daily Mail article [Of course – Ed] quotes Childline founder Esther Rantzen, who’s described the title as “sick and repulsive” and has asked Sony to either “withdraw [the] game […] or at least remove this scene where a virtual child is put in life-threatening danger”. Her statement concludes: “If you don’t, real children may suffer.”
Conservative MP Damian Collins, who’s the Chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, had the following to add: “It is completely wrong for domestic violence to be part of a video game regardless of what the motivation is. Domestic violence is not a game and this simply trivialises it. It’s dangerous to plant the seed in people’s minds that the way to deal with abusers is to use violence against them.”
For those of you who didn’t see the trailer at Paris Games Week earlier in the year, the scene focuses on Kara – the female android from previous trailers. Employed by an abusive father named Todd, the cyborg is witness to his tantrums. There are multiple outcomes to the scene determined by your actions, and one of which results in Todd’s ten-year-old daughter being attacked. Other narrative branches show him getting shot by the little girl.
According to director David Cage, the domestic violence is justified because it’s all a part of Kara’s character development. "There's a context in the story, there's a reason for that – where [Kara] comes from and where she's going to go,” he told Eurogamer.net earlier in the year. “What's important to me, and what's important in Detroit, is to say that a game is as legitimate as a film or a book or a play to explore any topic such as domestic abuse.”
Neither Sony nor Quantic Dream has commented on the criticism, but we may very well be nearing a tipping point where the scene has to be edited prior to release.
[source dailymail.co.uk]
Comments 73
I'm not sure what to think of this. I fundamentally disagree with the MP who says games should not tackle these subjects, because books and films have for many years now. Why should games be held to a different standard?
I think the "outrage" (which is clearly being manufactured by the tabloids a bit) ignores the crucial context that the "child abuse" is the worst possible outcome in this scene. It's the consequence for poor decision making.
And I think that's powerful in interactive entertainment: the fact that your actions can have devastating consequences that actually add pressure to the scenario.
I understand that Quantic Dream is often quite heavy-handed with these kind of things, but ultimately I'd rather play the scene as it was intended and critique that — rather than have contextless controversy force them to change it.
I don't think this is a debate that can be resolved easily. But I hope it generates discussion, awareness and action rather than just two sides contradicting each other.
I think there is a massive overreaction to this.
Also what's the difference between this and the domestic abuse and animal violence in the first few minutes of Wolfenstein ?
I hope Sony stands by Quantic Dreams on this one
Just as long as it isn't glamorising domestic abuse, I don't think it should be banned.
"It is completely wrong for domestic violence to be part of a video game regardless of what the motivation is. Domestic violence is not a game and this simply trivialises it."
What an absolute joke. Once again, stuffy old farts who don't understand video games as a medium spout utter rubbish.
Domestic violence is fine in Coronation Street airing at 6pm every day, but god forbid video games try to explore it.
I understand it's a sensitive issue, but when we start saying "you can't do this because it's a video game", we immediately limit the medium as a whole.
Wow, it feels weird for me to be on the other side of the moaning argument and calling for less regulation after all my general moans about loot boxes as gamling and all that. My view is that the game should not be edited at all - all the hoo ha needs to wait until the game is released and reviewed.
The issue to me is the trailer and context - in game, this would generate no controversy. It would make sense and no one would complain. That said, putting front and centre in a trailer was not a good idea. To make an impact, it focused on the worst outcome which, out of context, does look like a small girl has been murdered to sell a game.
Obviously they did it to shock and promote the game but, to me, showing something shocking out of context is a double edge sword. Sure you get people talking but you lose the ability to control the message which is to challenge the player to do the right thing but show a serious consqeuence to their actions. That is the point of the game and I get that and I believe the game will prove doubters wrong. However, leading your marketing on that most shocking of images was only going to enrage all those people who still believe that video games are Satan's play thing.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the points raised by the MP in that it is too shocking for a video game when soaps, dramas and movies have worse shown in every scene. Then again, I think there would be backlash if those shows marketing themselves with their most shocking imagery.
"A Daily Mail article quotes Childline founder Esther Rantzen, who’s described the title as “sick and repulsive” and has asked Sony to either “withdraw [the] game […] or at least remove this scene where a virtual child is put in life-threatening danger”. Her statement concludes: “If you don’t, real children may suffer.”
Really, nobody has posted this yet?
This is simple foolishness. It's asking Sony to censor a game based on the absurd notion that watching child abuse play out in a game will inspire it in real life, which is (probably) utterly unfounded. And there's no reason video games shouldn't be able to explore disturbing subjects to the same extent as any other art form.
Moreover, this isn't even just extreme violence without context, like the trailer for TLOU 2. This trailer is all about the narrative context of the violence. And the worst part (seeing the girl die) doesn't even appear to happen on-screen. I don't see how this could have been handled more tastefully, to be honest.
Correct the headline to "UK Politicians and Campaigners provide free advertising for Detroit: Become Human".
Anyone who copies violence shouldn't be allowed to play games or is a child who isn't old enough to play.
I'm off to jump on some turtles and then dive down a green pipe.
I don't see how a game is more likely to plant a dangerous seed than a film or book.
In a world where "Twincest" on Game of Thrones is accepted i dont see why this scene is more “sick and repulsive” than anything else. Its targeted toward the same mature audience.
"...research has shown that ‘children and young people often play 18+ games before they reach this age’. - Burrows, NSPCC
"Then there is the added danger that a child might play this hideous game – perhaps a child who lives with violence, who has been beaten or watched parents physically fighting. How many nightmares will this game provoke?" - Esther Rantzen
Both very valid points imho. However the game is a provisional 18 Rating in the UK and very likely to stay that way. As a parent I'm against censorship and all for ratings enforcement. This includes letting your children access content they wouldn't be able to buy themselves as long as a responsible parent is there to explain things to them.
I don't think Sony can do any more than it already has (PS4 has pretty exhaustive Parental Controls built in). Quantic Dream, or any other developers for that matter, are artists so can do whatever the hell they want.
@ShogunRok Coro's on at 7:30 bro.
I take it we won't be seeing any domestic violence on EastEnders then?
I think I'll look to someone other than Esther "me and my mate, Jimmy Saville" Rantsen when it comes to advice on child abuse.
“Domestic violence isn’t a game and this simply trivialises it”. I wholeheartedly disagree. I don’t believe this politician really did their research. As someone living in Australia where we only recently got an R18+ rating, it pains me to see this. This game is not about child abuse, it’s a very unique narrative driven “adventure” game that happens to contain child abuse if you fail to intervene. Also, why would children be harmed by this? What part of the game allows you to abuse children? Also Weren’t beyond two souls and heavy rain MA and R18? I assume Detroit will be as well and that should do more than enough to protect those likely to be offended. The ratings are there for a reason. Don’t force artists to censor their work because you’re not a responsible enough parent to stop your child playing a game rated well above their age range
Video games have evolved and matured to a point where real world issues can be explored and bring awareness to those who may not understand, eg. mental illness in Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. That game has actually made strides in bringing awareness of the issue to gamers the world over and in no way 'trivializes' it.
I see no reason why this game should be altered in any way if it handles the issue deftly.
There is some much violence across the board in video games if your going to pick this one instance then you also need to look at the trivialisation of violence across the whole gaming industry. From what I understand of the clip they are talking about you are not the one causing the violence against the child but have the option through choices of preventing this.
Video games are an art form and like other forms of art, should be able to tackle darker subject matter. It certainly shouldn't be removed from an appropriately rated title on the basis that children may play it. The same is true of films and TV programmes.
The arguments by Rantzen and MP simply suggest that they do not fully understand the medium they are criticising. It boils down to the usual "games are bad" nonsense we've been hearing since the '90's and the perception that they are toys.
Considering it's a Daily Mail article, we should probably just be thankful that they didn't accuse David Cage of being in ISIS.
All these politicians and campaigners moan but in truth they've never played a video game in their life. The game isn't even complete yet and they should reserve their judgement till product is finished.
Video games are a form of entertainment. Its not real life.
If it's ok in movies, television, books..., then it's ok in video games. Just rate it accordingly & its fine.
Domestic abuse is a very real thing & it's part of everyday life. Raising awareness is far more important than ignoring its existence 'in the name of women/children'.
Hope Sony stick by Quantic Dream.
I’ll refrain from expressing my disagreement as all of the comments above cover the subject extensively and I’d end up repeating stuff.
So I’ll just leave this here: “If you don’t, real children may suffer.”. What is this, a threat? 😂
By the sound of it it seems as though they’re gonna hurt children if QD doesn’t amend the scene lol
What people seem to forget is that violence is in human history and that its still going on today. Video games aren't responsible for creating 'violent' people - people were violent long before video games and TV. Games, Movies etc are a reflection on society and the state of the world - not the cause. You can't brush it under the carpet and pretend its not existing and you can't blame the media either.
I have NO issues with games tackling serious issues, making people aware that their actions can lead down a 'negative' pathway or that issues such as Child, domestic, or any abuse still continues daily. In many ways 'violence' in real life is not as prevalent and we have many more charities and support groups to help those get out of and recover from abusive situations.
You don't get these people lobbying against all other media - like news outlets (papers/TV etc), TV/Films (so say made for our 'entertainment') etc - all of which show violence or make it part of their 'story'. It annoys me that video games seem to be targeted to have 'stiffer' guidelines and rating than movies. I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit was given an 18 rating but if it was a movie, it would probably receive a 15 at most. Saving Private Ryan was given a 15 rating but CoD for example is given a 18 certificate. In many ways, film is more 'powerful' because it looks much more like 'news', like real life where as most of us gamers know its 'just a game' - that no-one was hurt and in some cases just respawn on death anyway...
Arguably it may have been wrong to use that scene as 'advertising' for the game, showing the 'worst' outcome for your decisions. I am sure they could have picked some other scene that didn't involve 'children' to make the same point. That being said, it showed the gravitas of the decisions you make, not just the worst possible outcome either.
As far as I am concerned, Games should be graded the same as movies. After all their Stories are written, directed and produced in the same way - even using acting to bring those characters to life on the screen. The only real difference is that they are more interactive and allow us to choose our own path through the story rather than watch it play out as the director envisioned. Even Linear games allow us to choose our own path, whether we choose to stick to the route and progress or look around, hunt collectibles etc. Most linear games are A to B but they are not on-rails meaning you get to decide how you get to point B within that area.
@clvr Exactly what I was thinking and about to say.
Yeah, no. I don't think politicians, dwellers of an even more corrupting environment than the Internet, are in a position to judge much in Fiction, let alone compare exploring problematic themes and the scenarios of their unfolding to "trivializing domestic violence" (which would smell of literary ignorance no matter who it came from). Suggest content rating revision if you wish, but get your paws off the content itself, please.
Then again, considering what franchises like GTA have weathered before and what content they have kept through it all, I don't worry much about DBH's fate. And even if something did get edited out, the game would be accessible in the same language on other PS stores via a different account. We aren't talking Wii U here.
Sony & Quantic Dream stick to your guns on this, please.
"Real children may suffer" how ridiculous is that statement!! plus children should not be playing a 15 or 18 rated game
Get bent
I stopped reading when I saw daily mail and conservative...what an absolute nonsense article, must be a slow day for MPs on the sexual abuse, warmongering, funding terrorism and forcing more and more people(especially children and the elderly) into poverty front...
It really irritates me how old people still think video games are just dumb little time-wasters like Pong or Sonic the Hedgehog, where it's just about "having fun". Sure, games like that do exist plentifully even today, but that's not all games are anymore. They can be just as much of an art form with a message as books and movies.
Clearly this game isn't advocating domestic abuse anyway. If anything, it's wrong to sweep issues like that under the rug. It should be talked about, and things like books, movies, and video games should depict how evil it is. It's entirely possible that a potentially abusive person could watch this part of the game and realize that they need to control themselves. Even if they don't, I don't see why they would be encouraged to keep doing it after watching it.
The old attitudes to videogames apply once again. "They are for kids" / "Serious themes should not be discussed etc".
Bottom line is that they are regulated with age restrictions, so if any child witnesses this scene, then the reality is that the parents are responsible, not the devs, while the potential influence on anyone else, despite being feasible at best, is rather moot considering the current state of tv and movies anyway.
Games are a medium like anything else so should be treated the same.. Like a movie, TV show, music etc....Recommendations and restrictions by the BBFC are one thing, but people getting on their high horse because it scores "brownie points" do not help any sort of sensible discussion, if there is actually a genuine need to do so
What a joke. A mere 10 years ago First Person Shooters were going to turn society’s youths into mass murderers.
This is people making noise just to hear themselves.
No. If games are to be taken seriously as art, games like this need to exist.
@johncalmc Or maybe that's what the terrorists WANT you to think. David Cage isn't even English.
“sick and repulsive” is how I would describe Esther Rantzen The Daily Male Bash, and The British Broadcasting Corporation.
MP, Damian Collins Big Sam was the best Manager England have played 1 won 1 sacked.
If they had their way we be playing Scrabble in padded walls.
Monkey Tennis anyone.
Why would videogames don't be allowed this kind of "heavy/controversial" content but movies can? These old "politicians" still think videogames are exclusive for children? There's a reason a rating like ESRB exists....
Yes but Politicians who persistently and excessively access pornographic images at work - the same people who pass legislation that had led to an increase in child poverty and family deprivation have a right to be outraged.
And of course the NSPCC has thrown in their tuppence worth. Did you know that The NSPCC has enough money in the bank to run the business off the interest alone?
And furthermore, the NSPCC is primarily a campaign organisation. Your donations go to various staff perks (cars, mobile phones etc, travel expenses, in-house junkets and more fundraising ( I used to work for them and saw all this first hand) Pretty much all child protection work is done by Social Services in partnership with the Police.
If you want to give to a charity that does put donations into direct services for children, give to Barnardos or Save The Children or your local charity that works with kids.
@PaperyWhiteBoy you beat me to it word for word.
“Take a pinch of white man, wrap him up in black skin”, what's the next bit? Michael: Err, “
Didn't people learn this from the 90s? My generation had to deal with this stuff back then and we are not a society of mass murderes.
Now if you excuse me I have to go watch some scantily clad woman being chased by some guys, after I go rip someone's head off leaving their spine dangling.
Until they start looking at Coronation street, Emmerdale and Eastenders for their constant portrayal of abuse and murder on a weekly basis and often with no punishment for the guilty party, then they should be leaving games alone. Not to mention a game which isn't even out and the context is not yet understood.
I think that Tory NO should be more concerned as to why tax payers are paying £25 million a year so that West Ham can play football and I'm surprised the Daily Mail has had time between their daily articles crying about Princess Diana.
Nobody is abusing children because they see it in a game, they do it because they are a c**t
Utterly pathetic. I don't care how anybody judges me for it. Video games are fictitious works, just like movies and tv shows. If you don't like the content don't play or watch, I can't believe this simple concept is lost on people in 2017. There is stuff I don't like in certain games but people should be allowed to create what they want to create and politicians can certainly f off. Those people are a joke. Far bigger problems in the world, many created by them, than to be worrying about video games.
These are the same people who probably think that video games are only for kids. They don't understand the medium and it shows in their response to it.
Not to compare this but it goes to show how out of touch his UK government is. They defend and too right but can't see loot boxes as gambling and I would never compare the two. Yet with the child abuse cases that have happened in real life in the UK and the low sentences abusers have gotten they have some cheek to try and say this
@KirbyTheVampire Not just old people... I believe there are quite a few people out there of all ages who still stigmatize video games in negative light; who don't understand the medium. Unfortunately, video games are still seen more negative than positive and blow-hard politicians see video games as an easy target to get on the "good side" of their constituents. Hopefully this will be a positive opportunity to have a discussion on what video games are all about.
I think david cage is kinda a goof but he's not making a child pinata smack around title here.
Killing people = fine
showing a scene of violence against children = oh noes! we don't want anyone imitating that.
So, you're happy with people imitating murderers?
Just like the creators of South Park said, you can't draw a line. If you do, it means that those people that are allowed to be made fun of it, somehow deserve it. Same here. You either take away all violence and anything bad from video games or you don't touch any of it.
Disgusting, adults don't need censorship. Not all video games are just for fun, its also art, story telling, it evokes emotion. Anyone trying censor video games is a disgusting excuse for a person.
May I also note that if you go into any book store there'll be shelves upon shelves of etertainment that includes as its central premise child abuse.
@JoeBlogs
It's escapism for me. I've played GTA, Mortal Kombat, sports games, for years and years. You know what influence they have? They're fun to play, that's it. A person who has commonsense and human decency isn't going to beat up kids because they see it in some video games.
@get2sammyb Wow, Jack Thompson. That takes me back... 2002 or something, right?
I genuinely don't understand the logic behind allowing it in TV/films but not games? Like... What??
@JoeBlogs
Of course the reaction isn't the same, and I actually didn't care for the torture scene in GTA V, but I can honestly say games have never formed how I act or behave. I got out of my parents basement long enough to deal with people in the real world. That's where I form my attitudes and behavior.
@crimsontadpoles this
@JoeBlogs I get where you are coming from on this but the fact still remains that any sort of media can shape our veiws and opinions , therefore shouldnt all media be subject to the same scrutiny and not just this one game . But lets be honest a minute It invokes strong emotion which is the point , but people are using this as a platform for building there reputation politically. There is def a conversation to be had on your point but what must people are upset about here is censorship/freedom of speech and the prejudice that people have against video games versus other media that depicts the same thing. Can you not agree?
@JoeBlogs
We'll agree to disagree.
“It is completely wrong for domestic violence to be part of a video game regardless of what the motivation is. [...] It’s dangerous to plant the seed in people’s minds that the way to deal with abusers is to use violence against them.”
..and standing by and ignoring it is?. the playthrough/outcome is not the only option in dealing with this situation - in fact it might be possible that this scene may actually never happen depending on prior actions. there are something like 8000 branching narratives in the entire game, a lot of the content will be very contextual.
undoubtedly the situation could make many people feel uncomfortable, and if that's so, simply don't purchase the game. but to say it shouldn't exist in games, is to take the view that games are only for children.. which is absurd. i don't know many children that can buy their own £50+ games, or happen to have their own domestic android to look after them.
whether intended or not, the scene in question asks an important question about artificial intelligence. the game is set in a future where human-like AI is a reality - do we want it to be subservient or not? how do we resolve dilemmas?. say one of the 'golden rules' of AI is 'you can do no harm to, or by inaction allow to be harmed, a human being' and then placed in a situation where one or the other may be necessary?.
anyway, if the second worst paper in england wants it banned/censored, that equals an instant buy for me.
@get2sammyb The real issue is how video games (interactive entertainment/ media) is still viewed by many. As you pointed out, no one says anything really when it's an R rated movie because they understand that it's not meant for a younger audience but when it's a M / 18 rated game they have issues. They need to educate them selves, not all games are for kids. It's a foolish stigma...
Congratulations Eurogamer, Kotaku and Polygon, all of you were also complaining about the violence of the games announced by Sony.
See? There is no difference between you and Daily Mail. xD
@Tasuki "Didn't people learn this from the 90s? My generation had to deal with this stuff back then and we are not a society of mass murderes."
Hmmmmmm. Im not blaming the games but the worlds recently seen a big increase in civilian mass murders.
As for Detroit, the marketing was all wrong at E3 for me at least. Leading with that particular scene was harrowing. If it appeared in the game you probably wouldnt realise once you work through that section, but leading the marketing with it is either really clever or really stupid.
This is ridiculous. Though i dont believe we as a game community we should have to change anything to make those looking in from outside less stupid but we need to change the term "video GAMES" to "Interactive Video Media" (IVM's) to distance it from being a childs plaything.
@themcnoisy That's interesting I just saw an article where murders in New York are the lowest in 30 years.
So it’s ok for movies but not for video games. Smh.
Months behind, as usual.
An uninformed knee-jerk reaction, based on a snippet of a game for which they have no idea of the wider context. Also completely missing/ignoring the fact that you are not the abuser and your role is possibly to prevent the abuse, or at least impose some form of justice on the abuser.
It's like we're back in the 80s where games are "for kids" and can't/don't deal with adult themes.
People didn't start shooting kids after the intro to The Last Of Us, and they're not going to start beating kids to death after this.
Wait a second is the message here do not stand up for children. Do not protect or help them. Turn it off and it all goes away, what you don't see does not matter? Well your too late millions of gamer's have seen that trailer. If gamer's do not save her that little virtual child will Die! At their request to turn a blind eye.
I don't really think this way, just going with their level of thinking.
If I were still a child, I'd rather play Wolfenstein or Call of Duty, but definitely not Detroit: Become Human
And somehow every kid around has played GTA5 or COD.
Last time i was standing in the store the mom bought GTA. The lady of the store asked the age of the kid who it was for. The reaction was if i dont buy he is going to play it at the neighbours. Parents should also take some responsability.
Then again i played Manhunt never ever thought to kill a man. Played Carmageddon never thought to go on a rampage with my car.
That said its a parent job to keep track of their kids ask how they are doing. I think it should be doable to check what they are playing.
I saw the trailer its not nice see but i loved it how she tried to safe the kid. Cant wait to safe the kid i know its heavy stuff but its not like we play the agressor but we are the saviour. The first time i saw Kara in the PS3 techdemo i was sold i just loved the character.
Plus if someone would have bothered to listen to dialog they would see its quite deep. And they would understand this was important.
These comments have clearly been made by someone who doesn't play video games or understand the video game industry. They have saw one scene in a trailer for a game that hasn't even been released yet. There are hundreds of films, tv shows and books out there that have similar content if not worse. Video games are an interactive medium so to jump to the conclusion that it trivialises domestic abuse is total rubbish. From what i've saw on the trailer it looks like you are trying to protect the child. This article is a joke. They always attack the gaming genre when they don't have a clue!
bit late but is there any news of the devs or sony talking with rating boards around the world like ubi did with south park to ensure it would get through? i can definitely see this being an issue to the australian board :@
did they completely miss the point that your supposed to stop it and that the "dad" is portrayed as a complete and uter *******
it's not glorifying it, it's showing it as something wrong, as something that we should fight against and try to stop
seriously so many people have a stick up their **** about everything now a days
Nothing better to do UK? Pick your battles, you have larger concerns.
I don't understand the debate.
It is obvious through the story writing, even in all the different options in how to deal with it, that the message is that domestic violence is bad. How it is going to lead to more abuse by presenting it as a bad thing is beyond me.
If anything it makes your heart ache for real children that are in this situation today. If anything it is masterfully written to make a sick feeling grow in the pit of your stomach.
If anything it draws us all to the very real and present reality that this level of evil exists in the hearts of men. I won't sermonize from there... but PM me if you want to talk about this last point.
I think this scene is empowering for kids in an abusive situation (minus maybe the shooting part).
Side note: I never saw this trailer before, and I'm really impressed with the number of outcomes you can pursue in this situation. I tend to "mess around" in these choice-based games and get everyone killed and the worst ending (for laughs), but this is one situation where they've done such a great job with the characters that I'd definitely go for the most brutal revenge scenario! Take that, ya scum schmucker!
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