Loot boxes are a hot topic right now, with Middle-earth: Shadow of War and its unnecessary microtransaction push at the very centre of the debate. One argument that we've seen spring up numerous times, especially over the last few weeks, is that loot boxes are essentially a form of gambling -- and more should be done to regulate them in video games.
Following up on this angle, Kotaku got in touch with the Entertainment Software Rating Board, or ESRB as it's more commonly known. The ESRB applies age and content ratings to games in North America, so naturally, it's interesting to hear what the organisation makes of loot boxes. Can their inclusion be classed as a form of gambling?
The ESRB replied to Kotaku with the following statement: "ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling. While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have."
We may not like it when loot boxes are twisted into mircotransaction catalysts and stuffed into our games, but we can't deny that the ESRB's response at least seems logical. You may be throwing real money at loot boxes and you may not be getting what you want from them -- potentially tempting you to part with yet more cash -- but you are getting something. That's not quite the same as the guy who just funnelled his life savings into a slot machine.
Still, it's a topic that's not going to die down anytime soon -- not with Star Wars Battlefront 2 around the corner.
[source kotaku.com]
Comments 41
great now they are going to show up in EVERY game
well that sucks
“ESRB” and “logical” in the same sentence? That’s a first.
It's not gambling if everyone loses.
@Th3solution I think the ESRB's business is built on logic, but sometimes that logic is too... logical, if that makes any sense.
Whilst the ESRB make the connection with 'trading' cards, there is still a 'distinct' difference in that the trading cards actually have 'value' that can be sold or traded with others to get your money back or a 'card' you did want.
Loot boxes though is just like 'gambling' in that you get nothing of any intrinsic value. Nothing that can be sold or traded in return. If its of 'no value' to the person purchasing (whether its duplicates or unwanted items), its the same as getting 3 random and different symbols on a fruit machine - money in but nothing of value out.
This is why I feel that Loot crates should NOT be bought with real money. I can see them existing as a 'reward' for playing or bought with in-game currency that can only be earned 'in-game' (no real money top-ups) but the only micro-transactions that I think should exist (not that I think they should in general for full price games), should sell the items/sets etc individually. If you are paying money, you should be buying exactly what you want.
I guess if they brought in an open market where your 'Loot crate' items can be traded, therefore giving them some 'value' - similar to the 'trading card' (clue - its in the name) system, then maybe the ESRB would have a valid point but until then, they are totally missing the point - paid off by Publishers??
At best I think it shows a lack of understanding of their actual uses in gaming or at worst, some kind of coercion. Digital loot boxes aren't phsyical products that can be sold or exchanged and most card manufacturers tell you how limited some cards are!
This is a great decision. Lets be honest here people do not really give a sh*t whether its gambling or not they just hate the idea of loot boxes that are paid for. Buy if you want them if you do not agree with them then boycott all games where this occurs.
@ShogunRok Yeah, I agree - it has its logic, but sometimes it’s a little bit - “can’t see the forest for the trees” type of thinking. All logic with no common sense. MPAA has the same issue, of course. I’m not necessarily saying I disagree with their points on this one, but something just doesn’t quite ring true that I can’t put my finger on about these loot boxes.
I’ll be interested to see if the other regional ratings boards for Europe, Australia, Japan, etc will follow suit with this decision.
@Th3solution "All logic with no common sense." Yeah, that's a better way to put it.
I don't get how they ever thought it could be considered gambling. I was buying blind packs of Pogs back in the '90s and nobody thought that was gambling.
..let's be honest, nobody likes loot boxes, but, they're not gambling... you do get SOMETHING, and kids have been buying packs of cards in the playground (football stickers, etc. etc.) for YEARS. By purchasing one of these (with real money) you're hoping you get that special player or Magic the Gathering card, or Yu-Gi-Oh, or,
(my personal favourite that I miss so much) - that Eye of Judgement Admiral Belta card (loved him)... it's irrelevant that you can't swap / sell - you're choosing to buy a randomised product, and that isn't gambling... and it's been going on for decades.. yes, the gaming industry have twisted it and have made games worse by doing so... but it still isn't gambling... (in my humble opinion)
That's a pretty good argument. I agree with them.
Zero interest in them, but if people want to buy them, I see no reason not be allowed to.
I have been saying this all along that loot boxes are just the same as buying a pack of baseball cards. Glad to see someone in the industry isn't jumping on the loot box hate band wagon.
You know there are tons of games released every year. I still have a backlog that extends back to Xbox, PS3, 3DS/DS, PC, vita and over 20 uncomplete games on PS4. I see loot box as a positive thing cause it means this mechanic is a turn off! Yep just like DLC, season passes, pay-to-win. I haven't bought a street fighter this gen (although purchased every gen since SNES days cos of incompleteness and dlc carrot infront of donkey mechanic), not bought an EA game since Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare 2 (horrible loot mechanic to win parts of a costume!). Destiny 2, Shadows of Mordor are crossed of my want list. And if battlefront 2 has loot boxes and is unfair (ie. Pay to get high level gear through tier 1 loot chests) or just too grindy yep this isn't added to my wishlist too. Just vote with your wallets fellow gamers.
Well now loot boxes are the de facto way to level up in sw battlefront and the pay to win model is being embraced, its about time I do more homework on what I buy. Im considering jibbing AAA altogether. Roulette wheels and games of chance are not why I play games.
I want the option to turn them off.
Of course loot boxes are gambling - trading card packs are too, obviously.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling
1 a :to play a game for money or property
b :to bet on an uncertain outcome
2 :to stake something on a contingency :take a chance
Whether or not you have a chance at getting absolutely nothing back isn't the deciding factor of gambling - it's throwing money at that element of chance, whether it's nothing vs something, or something mediocre vs something great. Trading card or loot pack buyers are chasing the same I-feel-lucky thrill as anyone in a casino.
By the ESRB's logic, you could put a $1 slot machine in a day-care center as long as you replaced all the losing rolls with $0.01 payouts.
Of course they made that ruling, the ESRB is made up of game publishers. If they did rate loot crates as gambling, it would make every game containing them rated AO (adults only) for retail, which would basically kill their sales. Publishers surely wouldn't want to shoot themselves in the foot now, would they?
They clearly don't understand, it's gambling.
@Fath, @Bad-MuthaAdebisi - totally disagree... would you consider buying a Kinder Egg as gambling? (I would really hope not) - there's a difference between buying a randomised product (cards, loot, stickers, kinder eggs, mini-action figures that you don't know what you're getting, buying absolutely ANYTHING from Ebay, etc.) and actual gambling (semantics be damned) - this kind of literal interpretation is what causes more and more of a 'nanny state'... and where does it all end?
Common sense (and personal responsibility) has to apply somewhere... I think most would consider gambling as a process of chance / attempt at getting something for nothing (i.e. more than what you invested, with a possibility of losing that money / getting nothing in return)... However, a randomised product GUARANTEES you get at least 5 of whatever it is for your money, with the chance that one of those 5 things are rarer (not necessary more valuable) than the other 4...
@1ManAndHisDroid kinder egg is chocolate and a phgsical guaranteed toy, didnt read the rest because you clearly don't understand
Sorry, not sure I agree. The dictionary definition of gambling is: ''Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize''.
I dont really see how loot boxes dont fulfil these criteria. Yes its similar to say football stickers, pogs, whatever else we bought growing up; and those blind bag lego mini figures you can buy now; just because its acceptable/legal to package them up and sell to kids, it is still gambling; taking a chance. You are staking money on the hope you get something new or rare (a shiny sticker, rare loot, etc).
I cant help but think that not making companies put controls in to restrict this kind of thing leads us down a dangerous path. I have never bought a loot box personally, but I have a child who will inevitably grow up having these kind of things promoted in her face from a young age in games and encouraged to think it is normal; which will inevitably lead to these kind of practices being seen as ok in 'the real world'. Very concerning and i dont like it at all.
I should point out that I in no way feel we should be banning them, or scrapping cards, stickers etc. Collecting and trying to get a complete set of something etc is exciting, and enjoyable. But we need proper controls in place with things like loot boxes. And certainly in the case of loot boxes, all content should be readily available to earn through skill in a game and not locked behind a paywall. And if you get duplicate equipment etc (I fundamentally disagree with digital duplicates for money - the game knows nicely what you have in your inventory), then you should be able to swap or trade it with other players for stuff you do need - just like you can with stickers etc.
@dryrain That would mean boycotting most big games this year lol. And even if we did boycott these games, we're still going to have kids gambling their parents money on them anyways, meaning we're stuck with lootboxes anyways. I do think it's pretty much gambling but for me it's more the fact that they're just ruining games making them harder to play unless you buy these loot boxes which I'll never bother with myself because just ruins the experience, the whole point is your meant to earn this stuff by playing the game not spending money, getting lucky and having a massive advantage over players or rushing through the games because of these.
That's put a lid on that debate then. Now, what can we all complain about next?
Just a friendly reminder guys that the comment section is not the place to post links to petitions. Doing so is considered spamming and the comment with the link will be deleted and can get you removed from the site. I know this is somewhat a controversial topic but let's remember that forum rules before posting. That includes responding to other users posts.
Thanks for understanding.
"ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling. While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want)"
By that logic I could open up a casino where people can get a penny/cent every time they lose. The gamblers are guaranteed to receive a prize, so therefore I can ignore all gambling laws.
@1ManAndHisDroid I've never seen a Kinder Egg 'round these parts, but from your description, yes, buying one would be gambling, if there was a real or perceived difference in value between the figures inside (or to put it another way, if you were buying a Kinder Egg not for the chocolate, but for the non-guaranteed outcome of getting a specific figure or type of figure you wanted).
I'm glad you brought that up, though, because it illustrates a second, bigger point that I didn't want to clutter my first post with: that the concept of "is this gambling" really can't and shouldn't be used as a shorthand for "should this be banned" or even "should this be regulated" (and the two are definitely not the same thing).
Yes, gambling is pleasurable. That doesn't mean it's evil. There are forms of gambling that are socially acceptable and forms that aren't, and a range of appropriate regulation in between. The difference between Kinder Eggs and slot machines isn't just that one is gambling and the other isn't, or even that one has a guaranteed payout while the other doesn't. There's a lot more to it than that.
Things like loot boxes deserve a nuanced discussion not about whether or not they should be regulated because they are or aren't gambling, but about whether or not they should be regulated because they harm consumers through deceptive rates of return (like their cousin, gacha mobile games, where people can drop thousands of dollars on "featured" units without getting them) or through provoking addiction, or even just because they're degenerate for the video game industry as a whole.
By dismissing all of that as "we're not going to regulate it because it's not gambling, and it can't be gambling because it's like this other thing that people don't regulate," the ESRB is sidestepping its duty and forgetting the entire point of why they regulate "gambling" in games in the first place.
Of course it's gambling, but you gamble every time you get out of bed so you know. Different levels n all that.
As for the current fuss, it seems to me it's more because jaded gamers feel loot boxes cheapen the experience of an otherwise fine game. I agree, they do.
I'd like to see a warning notice I guess, for what it's worth. At the end of the day though under 18s are time rich not cash rich, so I can't imagine huge numbers of kids are ploughing money into these crates. And as for adults, they'll just do what they gotta do.
ESRB are being paid off by Ubi & EA. Simples.
@kyleforrester87 EA made £750,000,000 in ultimate team last year. Thats profit.
BlizzardActivision made its biggest ever profit from Q1 2017 due mostly to overwatch and hearthstone. Their returns from digital microtransactions are up 50% compared to last year. They are both billion dollar franchises.
Kids are putting in alot. Its fubar mate the returns are too big for publishers not to push these to the forefront of every game. Wherever its acceptable or not is neither here nor there anymore. Its ruining games as the big publishers focus more on this crap.
Im gonna buy independant games away from EA, Activision and ubisoft and completely boycott their stuff now. They arent games that Im proud to showcase to my kids, and im certainly not happy levelling through luck or cash.
@themcnoisy Well, I was spending my cash on booze, and motorbike fuel when I was 16-20. To quote EA: ITS IN THE GAME.
Dunno where these kids are getting the money from to support all these habits :')
As for boycotting, more power to you. I don't boycott any devs or publishers. If I don't like the look of something in general I don't buy it. Just so happens I don't own a single boxed game by Ubisoft/EA and only Destiny and Diablo by Activision. And those EA and Ubisoft games I do own were picked up for peanuts, or actually good like Valiant Hearts or Child of Light. I enjoy plenty of microtransactions free games coz I generally don't buy naff games. I'm a classy babe!
Please watch the slurs. Thanks -Tasuki-
@themcnoisy Hearthstone doesn't sell loot boxes they are card packs, just as you would Pokémon cards only they are digital. Get your facts right.
This is the ESRB just clarifying how the law currently views them, as always the law takes a while to catch up with the digital world so I doubt this is the last time this will come up from a legal viewpoint.
It's pretty weird the current way they're getting around it being gambling in the UK under current laws, basically if the items you got out of lootboxes were tradable it would then be classed as gambling as they would then be able to place a monetary value on the items.
@kyleforrester87 You used a slur for homosexuals. Probably didn't mean it that way but we need to becareful as we get people from all over the world visiting our site.
@kyleforrester87 He's american (I think) so doesn't realise that is another word for cigarettes
„We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.“
☝️Cards are real life items. You can trade, share and sell high value items. Doesnt work with a Battlefront2 crate, does it?
@Dichotomy I know, but as I said in different parts of the world it has other meanings and since we have people from all over...
I have had this discussion before with management and if it's unacceptable in any part of the world it's unacceptable here. If you have a concern on how we run things here, feel free to use a contact form below.
Thanks for understanding -Tasuki-
I'm fine with loot boxes if they can't be purchased with real money, are kept out of single-player games, and aren't egregiously p2w or are only cosmetic items.
Hopefully they'll get better and less intrusive in the future; they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
@Tasuki I never mentioned lootboxes in my second comment. I was illustrating to Kyle how much money microtransactions are making for publishers. I read the investors q1 report last night. It makes gross reading. BlizzardActivision spent 250,000,000 approx on development and maintenance and made ten times as much back.
What would really help would be if they required games to show the drop rates for everything in loot boxes. That way you would know you have a better chance of being struck by lightning while holding a winning lottery ticket, than getting that ultra rare legendary drop you want.
@GoatWrench13 I like that idea of disclosure of the drop rates of the items.
I like the Monomachine / Yanomachine in Danganronpa where you spend your in game earned monocoin currency for the presents to gift to people and you can dial up more money to put into the machine to increase the chance of getting a unique item and it actually shows you as you put in each extra coin the % chance of getting a unique item vs a repeat item. Put enough monocoins in and the odds go all the way to 100%
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