Why Can't PS4 Pro Handle Destiny 2 at 60fps? Here's an Explanation

@get2sammyb Which is the same thing?

Ya, sorry, this is garbage. Other games have shown that 60 fps is possible, and Destiny's components are not more complicated than other shooters.

@get2sammyb Sure, but what I'm trying to say is that Destiny 2 is what it is. Even if Bungie wanted to hit 60fps on PS4 Pro with this specific game it wouldn't be able to because of hardware limitations. Not a knock at the console itself.

But yes, 30fps is clearly what Bungie's comfortable with.

@get2sammyb I remember saying this a long time ago when PS4 Pro was being shown off.

Yes the beefier GPU is nice, but if you don't upgrade the rest accordingly, it will bottleneck. DIseconomies of Scale and the Law of Diminishing Returns. Assuming ceteris paribus, that all other factors remain constant, increasing one factor of production within a business and only that one, will lead to resources not being used because the other factors aren't there to be used.

The same applies here: The GPU got buffed and the CPU only a little, with no major RAM increases. All other things remained equal, and that locks what can be done.

But Sammy, because its hard thinking about being on the "Its not powerful enough sorry" side of things (I actually feel you bro, it sucks) I'm going to throw a bone. Brace yourself.

This is the same game that for some reason doesn't have the money for dedicated servers, and wont go on Switch because you cant guarantee its always online.

Therefore I posit, they weren't willing to spend the money and time making it 60fps. They probably could with effort, but those other 2 statements I listed? Shows they wont.

I don't think its a case of not powerful enough (Though that's going to start catching up, sorry), I also don't think its a case of them making the game specifically for 30 (Because then PC wouldn't have the option).

I think its laziness. Welcome to the AAA industry. They'll BS the way around it. And in my experience, playing the "Its not powerful enough" card, is the BS way of saying we wont put effort in.

Though nowadays it may be trendier to say you cant guarantee it will always be online

@get2sammyb Do you happen to know how strict that mandate is? I'm only asking cause in the video, Battlefield 1 is clearly running at a higher framerate on the Pro.

@get2sammyb But think why that decision was made.

If the game was designed to be played at 30fps, why CAN it go to 60fps on PC?

And remember, they said they lacked the budget for something as simple as dedicated servers for an online only game which previously made an alleged $500 million in a day according to Activision. They also said it wont go to Switch because you cant guarantee wifi. Let that sink into how PR for this game works.

ANd again, its clearly not a comment of couldn't, and always wanted 30fps, because PC can have 60 as an option, so its not designed to be 30fps and that's it. Its a case of not wanting to put the money in.

Also, PS4 Pro cant be 60 if PS4 is 30fps? Go play Snake Pass.

@BLP_Software that mandate is for multiplayer games so there's no advantage

@ztpayne7 "But Sony mandates that you're not allowed to have a 60fps on PS4 Pro and 30fps on PS4 anyway."

I'm responding strictly to the comment like a good boy But hey if that's the mandate then sure thing. Doesn't derail the rest of the questions about this game and its currently terrible PR

@BLP_Software Keep in mind that the cost of dedicated servers increases significantly with an increased player base. Yes, they might have made 500 million in a day, and have millions of active players, but precisely for that reason the investment for dedicated servers would be far greater than a game with, say, a few thousand active players per month.

Also, no matter how much they could have wanted it, releasing a game on PC with a capped 30fps is financial suicide, you're better off not doing it at all.

@DrClayman I'm trying to be rational so Sammy stops having an existential crisis like in the first two comments. Regardless of that, I feel, more so for PS4 Pro, that the CPU is indeed a problem, but you cant say that as much for the base PS4.

I think Destiny 2 has had some....choice words about it already. Some statements have just proven to be BS already.

I'd argue that releasing a game without dedicated servers on PC is also suicide, given the whole they're used to better shtick. Plus all the inevitable DLC money rolling in.

I can't shake the feeling they are a little uneasy about this game.

@BLP_Software Oh I completely agree on that front, if you just take a look at the numbers, it's clear that the CPUs didn't get much of an upgrade from base to Pro, or even from One to Scorpio. Some people are saying that the Scorpio version will run at 60, but they're about to be very disappointed. I think what you're gonna see is a checkerboarded 4K on Pro and a native 4K on Scorpio. But sorry, I digress..

Spot on on the dedicated servers on PC as well, although if their netcode is THAT good, it's an easier pill to swallow than a 30fps framerate.

@JoeBlogs Hey, I'm on the side of you guys here. In case you haven't realised I've been ripping what the Destiny 2 PR team has said apart. I'm trying to find why they said what they said, and if you haven't noticed, it aint easy.

And yes, the game will have been designed with the consoles in mind, and that means being happy at 30fps. But their language says they'd be happier at 60. So why isn't it. What stops that happening? The CPU. To get their game to 60 on consoles the hardware would have to be improved, simple as. What part of the hardware? Probably the CPU. Same thing with Tekken 7. To hit 60fps it drops to 900p. Why? Whats the bottleneck?

@DrClayman I don't doubt that Scorpio could do native 4K. Always a chance it cant but its in a better position to do so. But the FPS is going to be locked by that frame rate. It's unnvering that the GPUs get buffed for visuals but the CPU stays back quite a ways. Its like Wii U CPU vs GPU bottlenecking. And look, yes the GPUs are awesome. But you cant run a game purely off a GPU, sorry. The CPU has a much lower limit so those GPU resources would be unused if the CPU cant keep up.

I want to see how their netcode holds up. Because the only reason that dedicated servers thing gained speed is because of the PC version. :/

It can't at 4k, we've no explanation why it can't run at 1080 60FPS.

Bungies explanation is really only referencing the PvE area - there is no AI or vehicles in the 'new' crucible and player count has also been reduced so the reasons they state are purely PvE based and I am sure the Base PS4 'could' deliver 60fps - after all Titanfall 2 manages it with a higher player count, big 'static' maps (not destructible like BF1 which could and does impact frame rates) and AI grunts/spectres even Titans too.

It seems they are either trying to ensure that the same 'experience' is felt across all modes - unlike Uncharted 4 or Gears 4 which both have 60fps MP compared to a 30fps SP or justifying the lack of 60fps in Pro without saying they can't offer parity with the base or its 'easier' just to set a 'higher' resolution output. By admitting that the Pro 'could' reach 60fps in either mode, makes it sound like the Pro is held back by the base model too.

People also need to stop thinking that the PvE aspect is anything like Rise of the Tomb Raider, the Surge etc and 'could' offer a 60fps whilst 30fps on base consoles. Its still an online Multi-player whether you are playing solo or co-operatively. Could still be in the same areas, strikes, missions, raids etc. Chances are, you would get Clans specifying you have a 'Pro' if it had a higher Frame Rate Cap and virtually become the prerequisite for joining or being offered the chance to participate with them in Destiny's LFG.

The Pro is offering a Pro supported mode. I very much doubt it will be the full 'native' 4k but I wouldn't be surprised if its more like Horizon:ZD in that its the full 4k Checkerboard with no upscaling.

For those that still don't understand what Checkerboard rendering is, this means that the GPU draws half the image every frame but instead of drawing over the last frame completely, it keeps half of the pixels and pulls that forward to deliver the full 4k image. Native just means it draws the full image every frame - drawing over pixels that may be exactly the same. Upscaling means 'enlarging' the image to fill the screen. A 1080p image is enlarged by 400% on a 4k screen but a 4k Checkerboard render still has 1:1 pixels and NO enlarging. Because the Pro lacks RAM - it has the same 5GB RAM as the base PS4, chances are that it will also have the same assets, same texture quality as the base model. It doesn't have the room to cache 4k assets.

The Scorpio may have the capability to render native 4k with 4k Assets but I very much doubt Bungie would offer a 60fps mode for the same reasons they wouldn't - even if they could - on the Pro. Whilst the CPU clock speeds have been improved by a similar margin to the Pro over base consoles, we don't know whether the customisation that offloads a lot of the workload to other areas could help Scorpio in this instance. MS state that the CPU render overheads have been cut in half and audio offloaded to a dedicated Audio chip. Latency is significantly reduced and efficiency improved too as well as reducing 10's of thousands of instruction down to 11 - especially with DX12 supported games.

Anyway, point is that even if these consoles 'could' offer 60fps, I doubt the developers would - even in PvE because of parity. I still don't see why Bungie couldn't have offered a 60fps Crucible as the reasons they give over CPU demands (like AI, vehicles etc) are not relevant to Crucible. I can only assume that they wanted a consistent experience across all areas.

@JoeBlogs Perhaps that is the case. The CELL CPU Architecture was a big price increaser for PS3, and lord knows the Blu-ray didn't help that either. Consumer CPUs and GPUs tend to be comparable in price, with GPUs usually costing a bit more.

But in the context of this, its one chip.Both in one space. Maybe its also a heat issue? Remember when people wnted Switch to be as powerful as the PS4 in the same form factor? Imagine the heat that would give off, and the size of the fan and heatsink. You think PS4 Pro is big...that'd be like sticking 2 big macs together.

@get2sammyb @ShogunRok

Lets say the standard PS4 isnt capable of better than 30fps (thats reasonable enough to assume) while the pro probably can handle without too much of an eye-candy advantage..

The problem is with online shooters, a 30fps advantage would be hugely unfair. Thats why I feel both versions are locked to 30fps and the Pro version will get a substantial graphics upgrade in terms of effects.

I dont think people should be getting up in too much of a tizzy about it in the first place.

@solocapers Well yeah, that's obviously part of it. The video clearly explains why Destiny 2 can't hit 60fps on PS4 Pro though.

Not sure what some of you are trying to argue here!

@ShogunRok My issue with Bungies explanation is that its purely centred on the PvE area of the game. The main bone of contention, and the games that are often used as examples (like BF1, Titanfall 2) offer 60fps MP. We know BF1 can't offer 60fps on either console consistently across all game modes but Titanfall does with a higher player count and AI in the MP - something the Crucible doesn't have. Obviously BF1 has a lot more physics (all that destruction) than Destiny, bigger player base and of course vehicles too. The main 'excuses' are purely PvE focused and do not address why the Crucible couldn't run at 60fps - even on a base PS4 especially when compared to the solid 60fps in Titanfall that has AI and 'vehicles' in the form of Titans (which can also be AI controlled) with double the player count.

Personally I doubt we would be having this discussion if Bungie hadn't announced a PC version. Had they announced Destiny 2 for consoles and that the Pro/Scorpio (if they could talk about Scorpio) would be purely visually better - just like Horizon, Watchdogs 2 etc, I doubt this discussion would be taking place. 30fps across all wouldn't have generated so much discussion.

No one on a base PS4 wants to hear that the upgraded consoles have a higher frame rate cap in MP. There would be uproar if Bungie (or any developer/publisher) released a game with that difference in MP. frame rates. You also know that Clans and LFG sites would be stipulating that the 'upgraded' console was required too - much like we saw certain weapons and badges are now. Must have PS4 Pro, Gjallahorn and challenge emblems to join our raid team, clan, nightfall etc so its not just PvE either. Trials and Iron Banner wouldn't be 'fair'.

I still think though that if Bungie really wanted Destiny 2 to join the 'eSports/MLG' circuits, they really needed to make the Crucible 60fps. I think that's one factor in them opting to go 4v4! I can only assume that Bungie didn't want the game to feel 'different' between PvE and PvP

@BAMozzy I do see where you're coming from with regards to PvE versus PvP - it's an interesting point.

@get2sammyb they said that they would need dedicated servers to help make it happen but that they don't want to spend the money. Evidence that proves your point about it being bungies decision.

I honestly believe that if it wasn't for that stupid rumor that some "insider" shared this whole frame rate thing wouldn't be an issue.

30 fps is okay as long as it's smooth like uncharted 4, horizon, ratchet & clank, and the order.

"if the PS4 was ten times more powerful than it is now, Bungie would have used that extra power to push other areas of the game and locked the framerate at 30fps exactly the same."

It's early in the day, but that's definitely the most asinine thing I've heard today. If Bungee plans on staying in the realm of 30fps for the future, they better get comfortable filing for bankruptcy. When next gen comes out, 30fps will be phased out completely. If it's not, you're buying a severely crippled system.

The game was a solid shooter don't think it's an issue.

I still think it's an engine issue, not hardware issue. It's not optimized for the pro, it's optimized for xbone and ps4. Sure the PC version can hit 60fps but it's going to take a ton of hardware to brute force that engine into 60fps.

@adf86 In this gen, and in games like uncharted, yes, it's fully acceptable, because the hardware is, let's face it, weak. By next gen, and i'm talking 2019 or later, there will be no excuse for everything not to be 4k/60fps.

@NathanUC they're offering an uncapped framerate on PC, not 60fps. That tells me you won't need an absolute beast to achieve 60. It does tell me a medium range PC will achieve it, because APUs are garbage, especially the ones used in X1 and PS4 systems.

If Nintendo can push out 1080p 60fps on the switch you can get destiny 1080p, 60fps on the pro.

You just can. No discussion or bs here. You can.

@get2sammyb
I Would laugh so hard if they can get it to run 60FPS on the Scorpio

@wiiware Destiny 1 was as smooth as all those games were.

@themcnoisy So what happened with Zelda - 900/30 (with a few dips here and there). Of course I know Zelda is very different from Mario Kart - just like Destiny is too. Its not like the PS4 can't do some games at 1080/60 (Titanfall, CoD, Fifa etc) but like the Switch, where we only have one big open world game to talk about, Zelda is NOT 60fps and won't be getting Destiny either. I doubt Skyrim, when that comes out, will be 60fps on Switch either. All the games the Switch has in common with a PS4 also have the same frame-rate (I believe) but obviously show the limitations of that hardware in terms of resources. I won't mention Minecraft as its 'docked' mode may yet be boosted in terms of resolution but without looking at resolution, its draw distance is not as impressive.

I am not 'bashing' Switch, but its not that simple either. The only game that has any similarity to Destiny - i.e. big open areas with AI enemies and physics is Zelda and that too is 30fps. I very much doubt that if Switch could run Destiny in any capacity, it wouldn't be 60fps so your argument isn't relevant - sorry...

What if they didn't make it always online...

@Gamer247 Doubtful.

@Gamer247 Even if they could, I very much doubt Bungie would. Unless they were to merge the PC and Xbox user base, it will not be worth the aggravation Bungie would get from XB1 and Sony console gamers.

It will be a 'brave' developer who offers a 60fps MP mode when the Base versions are capped at 60fps.

@sonicmeerkat then it wouldn't be Destiny! It would be Halo mk2 or just another sci-fi shooter. The whole PvE experience is based around the game being 'online' - even if you opt to play solo. The 'darkness' zones are just a transition from a 'public' to a 'private' area but you can still invite friends to join you. Public areas can still have 'random' gamers in - whether you are Raiding, on a mission or strike, or just free roaming. Treasure chests and resources are communal too although you do get your own 'loot'. Its not like the first person to gather those gets everything but you can miss out if you don't get there quick enough...

I fully agree with @get2sammyb if you think Destiny 2 is not capable of 60 fps on ps4 pro your crazy I have seen some amazing things done on pro and nothing about Destiny's graphics or physics lead me to believe otherwise just laziness to optimize imo

I really don't get why this became a hot topic, when it was made clear when the Pro was announced that multiplayer games can't run at higher framerates. It's such a non-story.

it probably could run at 60fps on both base consoles and the enhanced ones, depending on what could be sacrificed. lower the resolution, reduced anti-aliasing, cut back on the physics/AI, gimp on the graphics effects and use GPGPU compute for additional CPU tasks, etc.. depends on what bungie's hard limits are. for the crucible components, which has small maps, 4v4 player count, why 60fps is not achievable even on base PS4/XB1 seems to be more to do with bungie than hardware limitations to me. maybe on big open and public areas there's a lot more graphically going on.. strikes/raids are pretty enclosed/linear, but can have lots of enemies, effects, AI, etc. so perhaps a stable 60fps would a lot less likely.

pro will probably get pretty much the exact same experience as the base ps4 at a 1920x2160 resolution (which is equivalent pixel count to roughly native 1528p) with the rest of a 4k image computed with temporal projection/anti-aliasing. scorpio's GPU clock is about 40% more, so pixel count might be around native 1800p - it might produce a better result with reduced GPU load by directly upscaling to 4k, but as a multiplatform game/developer, can't see bungie making the effort to use the leftover resources for something particularly significant to be honest.

The developers wanted to make it 30 fps, they wanted to make it 60 but couldn't so decided for less, Sony mandated less... None of that matters. The bottomline is the PS4 and PS4 Pro (and Xbox One for that matter), are underpowered and we're stuck with what we're stuck with until PS5 arrives. Hopefully Sony gets that hardware more up to par performance wise because PS4 has been a disappointment in that category. It's not a deal breaking disappointment for me but I'm not going to lie, it's a shame it failed to deliver consistent 1080p, 60 fps gaming for a machine launched in 2013. It absolutely should've been possible for a reasonable price even back then.

It is a design decision of Bungie. If the PS4 Pro was 10x faster Bungie would use that extra power for graphic upgrades and it still wouldn't hit 60FPS. Framerates are ALWAYS a design decision of the developers. Every game COULD run in 60FPS. Bungie just has other priorities.

@Gamer83 If Sony will allow 30FPS on the PS5 developers will publish 30FPS games even on a PS5. It is as simple as that. It doesn't matter how powerful a system is. 30FPS are easier to achieve. No polishment, lazy programming, EXTREME graphic upgrades. Believe me. ONLY if Sony or Microsoft forces developers to hit 60FPS something will change.
And if there was a PC standard - like: every PC has to have this or that power - there would be tons of 30FPS PC games out there.