Forums

Topic: Can we please get some clarity and consistency on language for this site?

Posts 41 to 60 of 60

Jaz007

@Paranoimia Words often get reported and changed as well though. You’ll see a bad word then a mod will come in and change it. I don’t many see many S words or whatnot remain.

Jaz007

JohnnyShoulder

Just to be clear i have never got a speeding ticket in my life. I don't even drive!

Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

PSN: JohnnyShoulder

QualityGeezer

For me personally I don't think the use of profanities is the major issue here. I take issue with the personal attacks and comments that belittle an individual or a group that I feel is more damaging. I'm 36 so I would see it as water off a ducks back if it was directed at me but as a father who's 12 year old son also uses this site I read some comments that for example if they were directed at him I would class as bullying. Now I bring this up because these insults could be elequently written so would not flag as there is no profanity but are far worse than someone saying a game is another word for poo. Swearing whether you agree with it or not is common place in day to day life so we are probably desensitized to it but telling someone their opinion isn't valid with no constructive criticism can be damaging. I think contributors just need to learn to respect other views and if they don't be civil and explain why. I know a lot of people on this site are probably familiar with each other due to the community vibe so would use the banter argument but saying something hoping for a bite isn't the way forward. Sorry if this sounds like a ramble but after talking to my son about this yesterday this is what we concluded after reading the forum. Too be honest I think this is such a good thread that it warrants a soapbox or article so that readers that aren't members or contributors can get an understanding of how these issues are addressed.

Edited on by QualityGeezer

QualityGeezer

JohnnyShoulder

@kyleforrester87 I'm currently getting the Shoulder lawyers ready!

@Tasuki I will representing all Johnny's from this forum!

NOTE: real name not actually Johnny.

Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

PSN: JohnnyShoulder

Tasuki

@QualityGeezer You are right carefully worded insults won't pop up in our alerts sadly. What does are reports. If you feel like you are being insulted, attack or just see a post that does feel free to hit that report button and we will act on it accordingly. That's really the only way we would know unless we would read every single comment, thread posting etc. which, let's be realistic we can't.

RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

QualityGeezer

@Tasuki I appreciate that. I think I just give most people the benefit of the doubt but I appreciate you see my point. It's hard for you because you have a life too and it shouldn't be worrying about this kinda thing. I think what puts me off reporting some comments is that it's by regular contributors who may be your friends so you may laugh it off or blacklist me or another etc

Edited on by QualityGeezer

QualityGeezer

FullbringIchigo

This is somewhat of an important thread let's not derail it please. If you want to discuss that please take it to the chit chat thread. Thanks for understanding -Tasuki-

Edited on by Tasuki

"I pity you. You just don't get it at all...there's not a thing I don't cherish!"

"Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!

Tasuki

@QualityGeezer Nope. I don't play favorites. If it goes against community rules then the appropriate action will be taken regardless of who did it.

One thing to note too is we can't discuss moderation issues in public that is strictly between us and the other person, so at times it may seem we aren't doing anything but rest assured we are. As long as people use that report button then we can act. And just a bit of info, we never share info on whos reporting what so it's completely confidential.

RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

QualityGeezer

@Tasuki I honestly believe that, that's what makes this site great and I would never want you too make things like this public. The majority who use this site are respectful it's always a minority that spoil it. Too get some context someone made a joke about cancer which I can't see being funny in any context but it was laughed off. Is that acceptable in community rules?

Edited on by QualityGeezer

QualityGeezer

BAMozzy

I do feel that it is a very difficult thing to actually clarify and decide what is and what isn't acceptable - even within the context certain words are used. Whilst the 'B***h', B***hing words for example can be used in a very positive way with no animosity to anyone, something we all could say in everyday use in front of youngsters - this game is B***hing for example, the problem then becomes if it's good enough and acceptable to use in this context, why can't you use it in a 'negative' even if its not particularly aimed at anyone in particular - too much B***hing on this site.

There are obviously words that are categorically unacceptable whether its used Positively (this game is F***ing GREAT!) or not. I admit that I think some words seem harshly unacceptable - the S**t - with or without an e on the end and 'Blo*dy' - especially if Hell follows that. I also find that cultural differences throw up their own issues - a slang word for a cigarette for example (and some Brits will use that same term for the same reasons as the US too) but again its 'context'. There are other words too that are used in a negative way when directed to someone (qu**r) which could be used innocently, VR made me feel a bit Q**** for example. Its not just Brits that may say something that others could be offended by (although again Context is important) such as 'F***y which means something different in the UK - I don't know if I can say a character has a B*mbag, let alone whether an American could say what they would call it.

Context is everything though. There is a big difference between words being used in a way that isn't 'generally' offensive in the context its used yet can be used to insult and/or in a negative way. Personally, I think the world has gone too far PC that its ridiculous and that some people will be looking to take offence just because they can and not because the 'words' and the context are actually offensive. Its getting to the point where you almost can't use the word to describe the colour of Knightriders car when actually describing the car without someone taking offence and calling you a racist. Almost having to justify why you actually used that word when you could have tried to describe the car without mentioning its colour to help others visualise the car.

Its about context though in my opinion but even that isn't always looked at and whether or not that was a justified use of the word. When you have such a large community of ALL ages, religion, races, political alignments, genders, cultural backgrounds etc etc, at some point someone will be offended despite the context. There was an incident a little while back where a person in a different cultural background used a word in their Gamertag, a word that was an affectionate 'nick name' in their culture, but was deemed as offensive to someone on the other side of the planet because of their cultural background and had their account 'banned' for a while. The 'N' word can be used affectionately between some people but extremely unacceptable - again its 'context' and the sentiment behind the usage but understandably a word that really should not be used - even if its used between those people who know each other in real life - it cannot be used in an online forum.

The TLDR is that its extremely hard to police and determine what is acceptable. Even if the use of the word(s) in context are not 'negative', by allowing them in that sense may make others feel its a 'safe' word to use in any context. Even if some words are used positively 90%+ of the time, when it comes to policing its use in a negative context, that person can feel hard done by because of the other 90% of the time it was accepted.

I don't know the right answer and, you would think that 5-10yr olds aren't regularly looking and reading comments, participating in the forums (I don't know for sure but maybe the site owners do) so at least a 'PG' rating and, what is acceptable in PG rated films, is the way forward for PushSquare. If certain words do get flagged up, then, if its an acceptable usage in context, that should remain and, if not acceptable in its context, removed and an explanation of why - ie that it was aimed at an individual, a group of people, the site, etc in a negative and insulting manner. If the youngest here are 12, then maybe that sets the level of acceptable words, in context of course.

Either way, its something that obviously does need to be assessed otherwise this thread would not be started. You can't please everyone all the time and some will still be offended regardless - even if it seems 'harmless' to the majority, it can still hurt another. Saying a Game is 'bad' can offend those that made it for example - even if you joke about, make memes about it etc it may seem harmless but can still hurt someone. A certain acceptability though is necessary otherwise you have no site, no interaction etc.

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

RogerRoger

@BAMozzy I think you raise an important point, with good examples, regarding context.

According to current social precepts, I can say "queer" because I am, whereas others who are not would be criticised for doing so (in the same way an African-American from the Bronx might frequently use a particular word to describe his friends that I simply cannot and should not repeat, because I'm white). Despite this, when online we're all just words on a page, with anonymous names and avatars, and so I'd never use the word "queer" to describe me, anybody else or, frankly, anything (and am only typing it in full here to illustrate this specific discussion topic). It simply isn't worth the risk of upsetting somebody who doesn't know me from Adam.

Those social precepts are shifting all the time, though. My partner has MS and uses a wheelchair and if I'm honest, I've lost track of how I'm currently "supposed" to refer to him; is he disabled, differently-abled or handicapped today? No idea. It's very difficult sometimes to keep current with what's acceptable and what isn't (in a similar way to it being now deemed sexist to distinguish between actors and actresses, with the latter term being actively removed from polite discourse) especially when you don't fall into any of the affected minority groups. I've inadvertently offended a good number of people before, on the basis of gender, race, religious belief or sexuality identifiers that I've failed to update.

How are moderators supposed to keep up? Believe everybody who reports taking offence, making the list of triggers twice as long by lunchtime? Ban everybody who genuinely didn't realise you can't say "actress" any more, even though it was an innocent mistake?

Short of sitting both offender and offendee down and mediating a contextualised discussion every single time, I don't know how to police this without upsetting somebody, somewhere.

I trust in PushSquare to come up with a fair solution, even if it isn't a perfect one.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Th3solution

@RogerRoger Well said, sir. My sentiments exactly. I try my best to keep up with what’s acceptable, but it’s really tough in the progressive internet era of rapidly evolving language. Throw in cultural adaptations and you have a near impossible task to keep language proper for everyone.
When in doubt, I try to put myself in another’s shoes and predict how I might feel if the words were aimed at me. That still doesn’t quite help clarify appropriate language most of the time, however. I sure hope I’ve never offended anyone on here before. Sometimes I think I’m making a joke and it’s probably only funny in my own head.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

RogerRoger

@Th3solution Thanks; you've also led on nicely to the age-old issue of the written word lacking in tone of voice, expression and personal delivery. Nowadays we're used to chucking in a few emoticons to clarify when we're joking or not, but sometimes I forget to add them and I'm sure a snarky-yet-well-meaning comment could come across as jerkish.

I'm the first generation to really get and embrace text messages, so I've plenty of experience with older relatives or even older friends simply not understanding the humour or overall tone of a text, forum post or private message. And then if you're replying to a relative stranger in a comment section with what you feel is a joke, you've no idea, even if they understand that it's a joke, whether they'll find it funny. And that's before you factor in any potential age gap, cultural difference or a host of other possible factors that could turn "I was only kidding" into a perma-ban. There's a myriad of layers and intricacies to communicating via short bursts of writing; it's why there are so many controversies sparked by Twitter, because there's no way in heck everybody's gonna interpret your 280-character-or-less hot take the same way.

When faced with such a minefield, it's a wonder we talk to one another at all, but I think it's important that we do. As long as we learn from every mistake (because they're always gonna happen) then we're furthering the discussion every time... which I personally reckon can only be a good thing overall, provided those involved can recover from any damage caused by misplaced comments or phrases. Moderators can't be thought police, after all; we can only stop what we know to be bad right now, and react to what we don't know is bad yet whenever it comes up.

Anyway, I sound like I'm running for office again, so that's probably me for now.

DISCLAIMER: The laughing smiley at the end of that last sentence indicates a humourous tone. I have the highest regard for those who do actually run for office, or any other kind of public position. No offence was intended. This post is nut-free, but was written at a desk where nut-based products may or may not have been consumed. Your statutory rights are hereby null and void. Made in the United Kingdom.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

BAMozzy

@RogerRoger I too am 'disabled' according to the law and practically housebound as a result. I however don't take offence at someone making an 'innocent' comment but could very easily if I chose to take things out of the context. I know that with certain friends, you can get away with saying words that if heard by others outside that circle would take offence - and the example you use about African-Americans where a Caucasian maybe within that circle can use that word without offence.

Its the same with friends with different sexual preferences that may use the terms that their friends may use safely because they are part of that social group and using the same words with no animosity and often just affectionately but the point is, those people have built up a friendship and know that there is no animosity. However, all it takes is for someone not within that group to overhear a word and before you know it, they are taking offence on behalf of the person even if that person was not offended.

Whether you are happy to call yourself 'queer' for example, happy for friends and even anybody who doesn't use that term as an insult at all, there will be 'straight' (not that I like that word either as that has its own implications too - and I certainly will not go into that here) PC people that will be offended by the very fact that word was used regardless of the context and whether the person using it or the person it was about actually took offence. Just because you are happy to use that word yourself and about yourself, soesn't mean that others won't be offended because you happened to use that term.

There is a whole spectrum in most of the areas - sexuality, religion and how much of a devotee to each, Race and skin colour and even Gender - its not just Male and/or Female. Whilst a lot of words have been used negatively by people (trying to keep it polite), a lot of those words have been 'reclaimed' by some of the people in the spectrum. If Scarlett, Crimson, Burgundy etc was an derogatory term for 'Red', some reds would reclaim Scarlet, others maybe Crimson etc. Yet some 'Blue' or Green', will take offence if they saw the word Crimson and even the PC term Red and not the all encompassing, all inclusive word - 'colour'. Why are you using a word that separates Red from 'colour'? Are you 'red' yourself or trying to belittle Red, ignoring the rest of the colour spectrum, putting Red above others etc etc. Its almost that ridiculous. What annoys me more than people taking things out of context, is those people who had no right to be offended. In the case of your usage of the word 'Queer', no one should be offended at all because the context was you using the word about yourself. Some who perhaps aren't happy to use that word about themselves because its been used negatively towards them in the past, I can accept them potential being upset but no one else really has the right to be offended by that word and its usage in this context. You can't describe a games visual style as a 3 letter 'G' word and its original meaning which perfectly fits without someone taking offence - even those that have no reason to be can take offence - just because they can

Its getting to the point where you cannot say the 'female' protagonist because that's wrong and there was no need to use gender to describe the character. Its things like this that really annoy me most but for a multi-national all inclusive forum, it must be a nightmare. There are several words that contextually cannot really be used regardless - the F word for example - but so many words, totally innocuous can be offensive too that won't even be picked up. Slow for example has been used negatively but in context - slow-mo, decrease speed, pacing of a game etc is not offensive...

This is where I think a certain amount of common sense prevails - the word in context and also setting a standard to be adhered to by all - inc the staff and moderators. You can't ban every word and shouldn't have to remove words because that word has a different meaning elsewhere if the context isn't negative. In some cases, that makes it eve more bad, highlighting it, making more of it and reinforcing its negative connotations. The 'cigarette' word for example isn't just a 'negative' in the US when directed at someone, that word has been used in the same way here but again, its the context and the more we use some of the negatives in a positive way, reclaiming words and their original meaning, the less negative those words are.

Its not easy regardless as you will almost certainly offend someone because they want to find something to be offended by, want to be 'angry' at something and if its not a 'word' it will be something else...

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

LieutenantFatman

There's a lot of nastiness on the Internet these days. PushSquare seems to avoid most of the more controversial stories. Which I think is a wise decision personally, and I commend them considering many of these stories would result in easy clicks. And no doubt a lot of flame wars too.

I think they do a great job at keeping things running smoothly and helping to keep a strong community here. As for rules on swearing, keeping everyone happy is an impossible task but I'm sure they do their best to get the balance right.
Perhaps see this as an opportunity to convey our emotions with some more inventive & humourous invectives.

LieutenantFatman

RogerRoger

@BAMozzy You touch upon a problem we're now seeing crop up, specifically that we're supposed to be championing diversity, yet have no words to describe it... so how to you champion something you can't even talk about to begin with?

I was talking to my best friend the other day about female protagonists in games, and how it's awesome that there has naturally been an uptick in games with women in lead roles, even if not as the playable protagonist. Your example throws that into stark contrast, because we were praising the inclusion of women and yet, as you say, if you can't say "female protagonist" then how the heck do you acknowledge the importance and significance of games like Metroid, Tomb Raider and Horizon: Zero Dawn? Are we not allowed to recognise Samus, Lara and Aloy for their roles as positive examples of gender equality done right?

Anyway, this topic has become one giant sociology paper and we're supposed to be contributing helpful discussion for PushSquare staff as they consider the language rules.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Tasuki

Yeah, I think as it goes everyone has said their peace here now. I am going to go ahead and lock this thread for now if any of the staff wants to unlock to contribute to the subject at hand they can do that. But I just don't want this thread going off the deep end

RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

This topic has been archived, no further posts can be added.