Topic: Can we please get some clarity and consistency on language for this site?

Sorry to be the "moaning minnie", but can we please get some clarity and consistency on the site for what constitutes "foul" language on PushSquare?

And more to the point, can we ensure that whatever rules are in place are enforced universally?

A while back, I was banned from the site for using the term "b*tching" (without the asterisk - as in "people b*tching about the price"). I was warned, argued that it wasn't 'profanity' in that context - i.e. not the same as calling someone a b*tch - then banned by a mod. (I am purposely using asterisks here so as not to 'stir the pot'.)

I've just seen someone else cautioned for posting "sh*t" (without the asterisk) and their comment edited to asterisk out the word.

Now ordinarily that would be absolutely fine, and I'd have no complaints whatsoever - I'd even support it 100%. The problem is that there are numerous articles on the site which contain these very words in full, un-asterisked; it was when I pointed this out to Sammy via Twitter that my account was reinstated.

I've also seen both words in other comments going completely unnoticed, unchallenged, and unedited. Granted, this may be due to the sheer number of comments posted, but it could also potentially be seen as favouritism being shown to some commenters over others. (I am NOT saying that is the case, just commenting on how it could potentially look.) In some cases, staff even reply to comments containing the words without mentioning their use.

I love the site, but this hypocritical "do as I say, not as I do" attitude is a little irritating, especially when you consider that articles are far more likely to be read by a much larger audience than the comments beneath them.

I am NOT looking to stir up trouble or cause problems for anyone with this post. I'm just asking for some clear guidelines, and for those guidelines to be applied across the board. I appreciate that everyone has their own perception of what is "offensive" and what isn't, but if you're going to apply such rules, surely it has to be consistent?

Hello!

This is something that we've been discussing for some time, and we do agree — we need to find some consistency. We do think that allowing all kinds of swearing would potentially encourage a more aggressive atmosphere, and that's something we don't want. However, we understand that moderation on things like swearing can be too harsh at times. Again, we're looking to find a balance.

Hopefully we can all come to an agreement soon. We know it's something that we need to work out — rest assured it's not something that's being ignored.

Thanks for your feedback!

I assure you there is no favoritism here. I treat everyone equal, which is why I may seem so strict. As for why I edit the words it's basically this we have readers from all over the world and all age groups. What some regions may not consider aware words other do and because of this it can be confusing.

One word in particular for example can be a common British word for cigarettes. Here in the US it's a derogatory term for homosexuals. While obviously it depends onntje context I still don't want people feeling uncomfortable or worst yet the comment section going off the deep end. Another word which I found out not long ago is I guess a derogatory word for someone with mental problems in the UK where as the US it's not so much

In your case @Paranoimia you argued that the word you used is for a female dog which is fine but you were not using it in that context. When people say Stop ******** about the free games they are good this month, is the person really using it in that context, no they are not.

I honestly don't know where the confusion lies. I don't outright ban people for language unless it's excessive. Like for example

This site f***in sucks, you can suck my **** You are such a bunch of whinny ******* etc. etc.

Then yeah you at least get a temp ban.

You can tell which words are not allowed because I edit them, then I will notify you with a warning. After that just don't use that word it's that simple. If for example you said " Quit crying about these games!" Obviously you can tell what I edited. So just don't use that word again It's that simple.

To be honest we all know what words are sware words and what aren't I am pretty sure we remember getting yelled at by are parents or teachers when we were kids so it shouldn't come as a surprise when I edit the words. As I said before yeah there might be a few regional for example but once I bring it to your attention it should be clear.

Also another thing is when a user does use profanity I do get an alert so due to filters in place by the site administration so I ensure you I am not playing favorites.

In the end it comes down to respecting other users and making this place a comfortable place for all to visit and use.

I hope that clears up somethings. Anymore questions feel free to ask.

@ShogunRok @Tasuki is it not possible to put a filter on the sites comments and forums that automatically censors certain words?

that way you wouldn't need to moderate all of it yourself

@FullbringIchigo That would be great if they would auto correct themselves when the user posted it. I honest don't know that would probably be more of a question for @antdickens

Lol I just got flagged for calling Ant lol.

Be polite.
End of the problem.

@FullbringIchigo A forum I used to use had a rather over the top filter that took exception to anyone posting about Scunthorpe.

I picture @Tasuki like Danny Wallace in this scene in the IT Crowd (from 2:20).

@Thrillho yeah i know some sites can be over sensitive just like the communities on PS4 but there has to be a way to balance it somehow

Just use the same kind of polite language you would if you were trying to persuade someone you didn’t know to vote for you and you should be fine.

I will admit, regardless of whatever the rules end up looking like, that it wrinkles my nose to see staff articles using profanity when users aren't allowed to.

Either everybody swears, or nobody does. Personally I'd prefer the latter, not least because PushSquare remains one of the most civil and respectful corners of the internet (even with the recent uptick in comment section hostility, which may or may not be connected to the increased usage of bad language in the articles themselves) but I'm also a realist. It's the 21st Century and we're all relatively young; if a professional journalist can't help putting the s-word in a story they just wrote, how are passers-by supposed to restrain themselves?

It'd make moderation a challenge if you're gonna start allowing swearing, but still try to police personal attacks; using the s-word to describe a bad game may be seen as valid, but calling another user a piece of it would constitute a hostile act and would be (I hope) worth a ban. Every single post containing profanity would have to be analysed by a human and that would be hard work, especially since PushSquare is moving up in the rankings.

Yesterday I posted on a PS4 Community about Agent 47's Silverballer handguns and the word was censored. Perhaps an auto-asterisk algorithm is the right way to go?

@ShogunRok Thanks for the reply. I absolutely agree that a swearing free-for-all is something the site can do without, and I would never expect it to be allowed.

My main 'issues' are...
(a) there needs to be clarity and consistency (there are many comments with these phrases which are unedited),
(b) that the context often very much needs to be taken into account. Obviously with certain words there is no context in which they would be okay for this site, but with others, context can change the whole meaning, and
(c) it is - at least in my personal opinion - ridiculous for users to get warned/banned for using words/phrases which the site's own authors/contributors use regularly themselves in articles and/or comments.

Clear rules, consistency, a little common sense, and a level playing field are all I ask for.

I think it is important that Pushsquare is the kind of place where you can raise points like these.

Swearing is a hard policy. I swear a lot at home/work but very rarely, if ever in anger. It can be hard to differentiate swearing in comments from passive to aggressive, at least in articles there is often context.

I'd rather more strict swearing policies if it helps keep the negative sweary nellies away from comments etc.

In my opinion it’s not my house so it’s not my rules, PS can swear like sailors in the articles and insist that we start every word with the letter B as far as I’m concerned. It ain’t a democracy. Of course in doing so they will potentially alienate the user base so it’s for them to decide where the line is.

Myself, I love a good swear, and while I limit myself on this forum so as not to get in too much twouble I tend to just use an * to censor my naughty words. Having said that, I’ve always thought the * is pretty dumb, everyone knows what word you’re using and it ends up in their head so who cares if you censor it or not. It works with imagery but you have to be pretty dumb to not be able to fill in the gap with the word sh*t.

If one of the reviewers thinks that a game is ****, then I've no real problem seeing that so long as it's not simply gratuitous edgelording - which I wouldn't expect here anyway; and while I would always appreciate a deftly utilised lexicon from reviewers, sometimes a game really is just ****.
If the profanity was at clickbait levels (here's looking at you, Kotaku) - then I'd find it problematic - but it's far from that.

Whether it feels contradictory or not, I don't think editorial policy and user ToS regarding comments/forums censorship need necessarily align exactly the same way. A strong stance on profanity in forums and comments is an easy way to dissuade problem posts (and posters) and antagonism.

I think it's also fair to appreciate the difference in articles/editorial policy, comments on those articles, and the forums.
I realise we all have access, but many in the comments sections seem to sign up just to comment and never set foot over here anyway.

Set the standard here, keep it clean and maintain that in the comments, whether or not any given author for the site decided to use profanity or not.

B****ing isn't even a swear word is it?

@themcnoisy I guess if you were saying “I got caught red handed b*****g the missus in the back of my Golf”, that might be considered a bit blue?

@kyleforrester87 "...some place very uncomfortable."

@Tasuki

I'm sorry you seem to feel that this thread is about you. It is not.

My reason for posting this was/is purely to seek clarification, and nothing to do with the ban I received, beyond trying to ensure that others don't encounter the same issue due to (what appear to be) very loose and inconsistently applied rules. As far as I'm concerned, the ban was no big deal. Sure, it seemed ridiculous to me, but it was reversed in less than 3 hours from the time I was informed, and for me that was the end of it.

I specifically and intentionally left your name out of the post when I mentioned the ban as this isn't about you, me, or any other individual. It wasn't even you who made the edit which prompted me to create this topic.

And to be clear, I am absolutely NOT accusing you - or anyone else, for that matter - of playing favourites. As I originally stated, I was just giving my opinion on how it may look for the site in general when some comments attract cautions/edits/bans and others don't, even though they contain the same words/phrases.

Contrary to what you seem to think, this post actually came about after I saw that Quintumply had edited the first comment on this article:
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2019/07/july_2019s_playstatio...

Why? Because there are numerous articles on the site which include the word "sh*t" in full.

I mentioned my ban for the sole reason that it came about as a result of a similar issue: a warning over a word deemed 'unsuitable' for a reader to use, but which has been used by authors on the site in their articles. As I've said, I'm simply seeking clarification and consistency for everyone's benefit. Nothing more, nothing less.

However, I'll address some of the points you raise.

I absolutely did not argue that I was using "b*tching" in the context of a female dog. That was actually your stipulation when imposing the ban - that it was profanity unless I was specifically referring to a female dog.

People can view the sequence of events for themselves in the comments on the article for which I was banned...
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2019/04/ps5_will_use_a_specia...

...or on Imgur, where I also have the login screen message I received when the ban came into effect...
https: //imgur.com/a/P5mhRyJ (Space added to prevent preview.)

So on that front, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you have me confused with someone else.

As you can see, what I actually said at the time was exactly what I've said above (albeit more briefly and, admittedly, with a bit too much sarcasm)... that the use of "b*tching" in the context I was using it ("b*tching about the price") was slang, not profanity... a verb meaning 'to complain' - something which is backed up by multiple dictionary definitions.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bitch
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/bitching
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bitching
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bitching

If there is confusion about what is or isn't acceptable, it only comes from the lack of consistency in how the rules seem to be interpreted and applied. Some comments are edited and warnings issued, many others are left untouched with no warnings, even though they contain exactly the same words/phrases/context.

Please, sincerely, do me a favour: click in the site search at the top and search for the words 'sh*t', 'b*tch', and 'b*tching' (without the asterisks, obviously), and see how many times they appear across both PushSquare and NintendoLife, in both comments and - perhaps more importantly - articles.

There are numerous articles with these words in them. There's one on NintendoLife which uses "b*tch" in the headline in exactly the way you consider offensive...
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2008/02/sony_continues_to_be...

...and another which contains the word "b*tching" in exactly the same context which I was using when banned...
http://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/cities_skyli...

There's even a comment on that second article (#21) from a reader questioning the use of the term "b*tching", yet it's still there in full in the article, but censored in the comments!

There are also multiple unedited appearances in comments which go back more than 10 years, including at least one from Sammy in exactly the same context.

So now perhaps you can see why there would be 'confusion' as to whether something is deemed to be profanity or not.

Whilst I do understand the argument that different words can mean different things to people in different regions, I think "b*tching about" is universally recognised as meaning 'having a whinge', and not as an insult to women. Even if that's not the case, the argument is rendered pretty much impotent in this case by the fact that the site's own staff make semi-regular use of the term.

And that brings us back to the whole point of the original post - clarification and consistency. If someone has been swearing along the lines of the example you give, or insulting other members/staff on a personal level, I could absolutely understand it. But surely you can see that warning and/or banning people for using the same words which site contributors use regularly is utterly ridiculous.

One final point. You say you "don't outright ban people for language unless it's excessive" - yet you issued me with a ban anyway, merely for pointing out that "b*tching about..." was slang, not profanity. You said that it was because I didn't want to follow the rules, but as I've shown, the rules aren't clear and are not enforced consistently.

As the term and context I used appears in articles on the site(s), and remains unedited in many comments, even though you've said that you (and presumably other staff) receive notifications), it's probably safe to say it isn't viewed as 'excessive'. The only thing I can take away from that is that you saw fit to ban me simply because you didn't appreciate being challenged on the matter.

What is also interesting is that despite banning me, you didn't edit the second occurrence of the word - it's still there as I type this. Also, in skimming through the search result articles and comments in order to be sure I'm not BS-ing myself, I've even seen a comment from someone else where you've edited to warn about language and not modified the word. Then, as recently as mid-June this year, you've issued a general warning on another article about language, yet not commented on/edited the B-word in the post immediately preceding yours.

Again I want to be clear that this is NOT a personal attack. I am merely responding to points you've raised. I am NOT pointing this out to knock you, ridicule you, or anything like that. I'm sure that other moderators have done the same. The ONLY reason I mention it is to point out that if you yourself are not being consistent in your moderation, how can you realistically say to me that you don't know where the confusion lies?

So it would seem that clearer guidelines would be beneficial to you and everyone else who performs moderation duties, as well as users of the site. Just as well ShogunRok has confirmed that the situation is being discussed.

If I'm told that "b*tching" is unacceptable without the asterisk but okay with it, fine - even if I feel it makes little sense. If I'm told that neither is acceptable, fine. I just want some clear guidelines and consistency, because at the moment it's quite clearly all over the place. The receipt of warnings or bans seems very much to depend on which moderator gets the notification, and so we have constantly moving goalposts, which isn't fair to anyone, be they staff or readers. Whatever decision is reached, site staff must be held to the same rules for their articles as readers are for their comments.

@Paranoimia That's a long a*s post No offence but I don't think as a moderator working for free I'd get back to all that in a way you'd be happy with, so hats off to Tasuki if he manages it!

I think you'll be happier if you apply the "not my house, not my rules" logic, it works for me. If certain aspects of moderation don't make sense to you just move on, and if you don't know how to slip in the odd curse word without getting in trouble it's probably best not to bother at all.

Long a*s post, though

@Paranoimia I must admit it is something I have noticed too in some articles.
We live in a world where currently the following regulations are set against films:
U - 'Infrequent use only of very mild bad language'
PG - 'Mild bad language only'
12A/12 - 'Moderate language is allowed. The use of strong language (for example, ‘f**k’) must be infrequent'
15 - 'There may be frequent use of strong language (for example, ‘f**k’). The strongest terms (for example, ‘c**t’) may be acceptable if justified by the context. Aggressive or repeated use of the strongest language is unlikely to be acceptable'.
How can there be an argument on what is a profanity? Is this site a rating U or 15?
On that note, the site rule follows;

Do not use profanity; Use of unsavoury language including profanity and swearing is not acceptable, please remember that this website has users of all ages.

What is classed as profanity for this site? A word I may use is Twat, which is a hilarious piece of British slang, not profanity. I admit it is a hard call but I definitely know I cannot put the "main" swear words in (as above).

I have also noticed that a lot of the articles have quite an aggressive tone to them. It may be just me but it does feel like a tone shift has happened across the board.