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Topic: "Objection!" - The Ace Attorney Topic

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RogerRoger

Creating this to avoid derailing other topics, but also because there are rumours of new games and further remasters in the pipeline, so it can't hurt to have someplace to discuss 'em!

Please use this topic to discuss the Ace Attorney series. I'm putting it in the PS4 forum, because that's where some of its games arrived on Sony hardware for the first time. The Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy includes the series' first three games (originally released on GBA and later expanded on DS) and The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles is a duology of 3DS remasters.

The Ace Attorney games are deduction-based adventure games in which you help lawyers investigate cases and defend their clients. The franchise is pretty huge, having spawned a live-action movie and an anime series, as well as a crossover with Professor Layton. Its most famous protagonist is Phoenix Wright.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

nessisonett

Probably a good idea considering how heavily we’ve been discussing it 😂

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

belmont

I love the Ace Attorney games. I have all games released in Europe. All games have their ups and downs but the original trilogy is the best place to start. It is regularly in discount as well.

belmont

RogerRoger

@Ralizah Thanks for replying to my "Turnabout Big Top" rant in such detail, especially with having to juggle all those quote breakdowns and spoiler tags, but...

Ralizah wrote:

Everyone expects you to stake out the unpopular position on the case, but you subvert expectations by agreeing with the majority of the fanbase. Good work, Rian Johnson.

...hey, c'mon now, let's not use insults we can't take back!

Ralizah wrote:

Regina is legally able to consent at 16, and I believe she's even able to marry with a guardian's permission in most of the developed world, so I don't think the judge would be able to do much, even if the interest in her hadn't been limited to flirtation and talk of marriage.

Well, as unfortunate as that truth may be, it's still creepy. I do understand the whole "sheltered" angle they were going for with her character, though, and the payoff at the end where she's taught a few hard truths about life outside the circus was a better conclusion than I expected.

Ralizah wrote:

Pretty sure her father got away with witness intimidation tactics openly in court, so Franziska getting away with this seems pretty par for the course. Also, she violently assaults people with her whip without any repercussions. Remember, the justice system in this game is corrupt (or particularly susceptible to abuses of power, at least), and you're cursed with possibly the worst judge in the world.

Also yes, true, although I'm not sure her father ever admitted as such in open court. He stayed silent, wagged his finger and arrogantly proclaimed victory anyway, but Franziska essentially said "yeah, sure, I coached my witness to lie, and I did it for your own benefit because I know best" which is why I said it crossed a line with me. The corruption of the justice system has at least held water up 'til now; no matter how blatant it might've appeared, the villains made an effort to maintain the pretence. Had I been sitting in the peanut gallery, Franziska's admission would've made me think "Why are we even bothering with all this trial nonsense? Let's just go around shooting anybody with shifty eyes and be done with it!"

And you're right, whilst we're drawing up a charge sheet for Franziska, let's not forget the hundreds of individual counts of assault with a whip. That's an infuriating character trait, and perhaps the biggest cause of my disdain towards her.

Ralizah wrote:

Can't really defend the case's honor here. I love Moe, but the sequence where the judge penalizes you if you press him for information sucks! Just poor, infuriating game design.

Let me just take this opportunity to say that, aside from this brief agreement, I completely respect and admire your defence of the case, no matter how differently I may feel about its other details. I've been in your position far too many times before, regarding [insert dozens of books, movies, TV shows, albums and games here] and so I understand what it feels like to see the good in the universally condemned. I'm real grateful for you taking the time to explain your perspective!

Ralizah wrote:

The cloak thing is... unlikely... but not impossible. The problem is that, while Phoenix insinuates the cloak gets "snagged" on the bust, the in-game animation, yeah, shows it awkwardly hovering onto the bust.

The hat was on the bust as well, right? The hat bothers me more than the cloak. My pants get snagged on stuff all the time, so I could see that, but the hat landing nicely on top of the bust's head is another thing entirely.

No, the hat wasn't a problem. It never landed on the bust; it fell to the ground, and was picked up as a separate piece of evidence. The bust already had a hat as part of its structure, which is how Moe was able to see the silhouette of the bust and cloak "fly" away with such a distinctive shape (which then created an exploitable contradiction with the hat recovered from the scene). It was just the strange gravity-defying cloak which was a little too convenient for me, by itself; if the hat had been involved in the way you suggest, then I would've found that borderline insulting.

Ralizah wrote:

BTW, there's a fun little secret in this case. If you accuse the judge of hiding the murder weapon, he gets furious and double-penalizes you, which drops your HP bar down to almost nothing!

Brilliant! Had no idea about that; will look it up later. Thanks!

Ralizah wrote:

Question: did the former incident trigger during an investigation, and the latter during a trial?

No, the incident with the malfunctioning Magatama was all part of the same investigation phase, when you first meet Acro. When you talk to him, the second dialogue option is about what happened to Bat six months ago, and is protected by psyche-locks, but then you immediately go down to the third or fourth dialogue option and Acro gives you his fabricated alibi (complete with black-and-white photo flashback) about being in bed and seeing Max fly past his window. I know the Magatama is enchanted to detect "secrets" and one could technically argue that a lie isn't a secret, but I'd counter that lies are specifically employed to protect secrets; in this case, Acro was lying to protect the secret of his guilt.

But then, I'll be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the Magatama mechanic anyway. It just drags part of the trial gameplay into the investigation phase and, as somebody who kinda likes the investigations but loves the trials, I'd rather get back to court as quickly as possible.

Ralizah wrote:

What were the plot holes besides the questionable bit with the cloak and hat getting snagged on the bust? I've heard debate about Acro's motives, but his actions never seemed that odd to me.

The broken Magatama was the second one. The first was Max's admission that he stole Trilo and hid him in the Ringmaster's office; there is literally no place to fit that in the timeline, because Trilo was outside with Ben when he saw the Ringmaster walking towards his untimely demise, and Max was waiting in the Ringmaster's office until the police arrived. And yet it had to have happened because, upon hearing Max's admission, Phoenix has to fetch Trilo from the Ringmaster's office and return him to Ben. Which is proof that Max is a liar, and made me suspect him when I should've been focused elsewhere, and yet all of Phoenix's defence arguments were based around Max having stayed in the office.

Never had any problem with Acro's motives. I actually thought he was one of the best-written, most sympathetic characters thusfar (which made him the perfect suspect, I suppose).

Ralizah wrote:

I'll pick up this part of the conversation after you beat the next trial, but I can't bring myself to dislike Franziska.

I'm halfway through "Farewell, My Turnabout" right now. Franziska's been shot. She was still being a right ol' cow beforehand, but that particular twist has me curious as to what's really going on, especially since it resulted in Edgeworth's return to the bench. Despite whatever I may say about any particular character at any particular time, I won't rush to any definitive judgements 'til the credits roll because, if these games have taught me anything, it's that appearances can be deceptive!

Ralizah wrote:

Even if I'm in the awkward position of not disliking this case, I can indeed agree with @nessisonett that it's all uphill from here. The next trial (and last in JFA) is one of the better cases in the series, and T&T arguably doesn't have any low points (I'm not a huge fan of 3-2, but it's still better than Turnabout Samurai and Turnabout Big Top).

Having gotten underway with "Farewell, My Turnabout" earlier, I can totally see what you and Ness mean. It has the potential to be my favourite case yet, provided my wild theories pan out!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

PSVR_lover

belmont wrote:

I love the Ace Attorney games. I have all games released in Europe. All games have their ups and downs but the original trilogy is the best place to start. It is regularly in discount as well.

I agree, but they all are very good. I need to replay them.

The PSVR is the best VR system on the market today.

RogerRoger

@nessisonett Thanks, yeah, and additional thanks to @LtSarge for the suggestion. Also tagging @render from the other topic, as they replied yesterday as well.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

LtSarge

I first started playing through this series back in Spring of 2015 I believe. It was during my first year at uni and I really needed some visual novels to help me through my studies. Never played any of these games before but I saw that they were constantly on sale on the 3DS eShop, so I bought the DS trilogy. Honestly, I had a rough time getting through the games because I had a hard time paying attention to and remembering stuff for the trials. The first Ace Attorney was great (including the bonus case at the end), the second one was decent and the third game was phenomenal. At that point though the games started becoming a bit too same-y for me, which is why I was so excited to play Apollo Justice, the fourth game, since it had a different protagonist. Fun fact, a friend of mine actually bought a physical copy of the game at Gamestop during a clearance for only €10 and he did it because he wanted to send me the copy as he knew that I had just finished the trilogy (and at the time, the game wasn't available on the 3DS eShop). So I was very fortunate that I was able to play that game right after the first three games. And I loved it!

Now, I have this weird habit of not liking the main characters of a franchise as much as the main characters that come afterwards. For example, in terms of Kingdom Hearts, I don't really like Sora, Kairi and Riku as much as Terra, Ventus and Aqua. And it was the same thing for me with Ace Attorney, I vastly preferred Apollo Justice as the protagonist and Klavier Gavin as the prosecutor compared to Phoenix Wright and Miles Edgeworth respectively. Gavin is actually my favourite prosecutor out of all of them.

"Achtung baby! Today we play it my way", I always got so excited whenever he said this in a trial and his theme came on.

As for Dual Destinies, I thought it was an okay game and it was basically more of the same when compared to the first three games. But when Spirit of Justice came out, I was absolutely blown away. This game is easily the best Ace Attorney title I've ever played because it had a very good mix of cases and the final one is also the best one out of all the cases in the series so far. The amount of twists were absolutely staggering. If there's one game that overcame my expectations, it was this one. What a thrilling ride it was!

As for my stance on the series now, I've kinda lost interest in it. I was kinda excited when The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles came out, but I just didn't feel like playing them. They just felt like more of the same and it doesn't help either that I've played visual novels that I've liked much more since then (such as Danganronpa and Steins;Gate). But who knows, maybe all this talk about Ace Attorney will convince me to give those games a go and since it's been numerous years since I last played the series, perhaps they'll feel like fresh experiences to me once again.

LtSarge

Ralizah

Not really sure what is or isn't considered a spoiler in this reply, so... read at your own risk if you haven't played Ace Attorney: Justice for All, I guess
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@RogerRoger You want to talk about plot holes: I can't help but think that the introduction of "evidence law" in RftA completely invalidates most of the random evidence Wright turns up during his mid-trial investigations, especially considering half of it is stolen from crime scenes and whatnot. And yeah, the magatama is... an OK gameplay mechanic, and used cleverly in certain places, but it's ridiculously easy to find fault with. Like, why is that thing not popping off 100x per trial? Literally everybody lies their butt off in these games (and, like with Franziska's witness coaching, Von Karma's witness intimidation, etc., nobody ever seems to be punished for it).

In Franziska's case, the judge's lax attitude toward her didn't bother me too much since:
A: We know he's willing to tolerate a ridiculously large amount of unprofessional behavior from prosecutors. And, in Manfred Von Karma's case, there has been a precedent for this going back decades.
B: Her implied rationale, at least to me, was less "I told him to lie" and more "he was going to say something obviously stupid, so I didn't want him wasting the court's time." Obviously not acceptable, of course, but in the context of this universe, I could see why she'd get away with little more than a brief bit of chiding from the judge.
C: Unlike The Great Ace Attorney, which attempts to handle certain elements of this universe in a more realistic manner, the mainline games (originally intended as satire of the Japanese legal system) are a bit more farcical in their treatment of legal procedure.

Well, everyone's going to have that moment where their suspension of disbelief falters, and I suppose that was yours.

re Regina: Max and Bat (forget what his real name was) are both in their early 20s, so, while not necessarily the most appropriate thing in the world, it's also not something I'd reflexively and immediately recoil from. Life context is probably key here: as a teenager, I briefly was in something like a relationship with someone decently older, and many of my acquaintances were dating college-age men. So, when I was playing this (this is the only one of the original trilogy I didn't bother replaying, so my last playthrough was... 2009 or thereabouts, I believe), it never even occurred to me that people might have an issue with Regina's suitors being a bit older than her.

Ben is obviously a bit old to be crushing on a high school age girl, but I'd expect creepy behavior from someone who's inches away from being a Batman villain

Your case predictions have been pretty accurate thus far, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've already figured out what's going on in this case!

Edited on by Ralizah

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

PSN: Ralizah

render

@RogerRoger Cheers for the tag and setting up the thread 😀

I am going to have to get this. When I played it through on DS years ago we rented the games so I don't have them anymore. I thought perhaps I'd pick them up on DS as I've still got mine lying around and I thought it worked really well with the stylus. It's looking like it will cost about £25 a game as opposed to £25 for the triology on PS though so I think I'll just grab it on PS.

render

johncalmc

Is the Ace Attorney anime any good or is it as rubbish as I am imagining? (I am imagining rubbish)

johncalmc

Twitter:

render

@johncalmc Not watched it but was tempted to see what it was like too. I can already imagine what the answer to your question is 😆

render

nessisonett

@johncalmc It was rubbish. It made Phoenix look like anything other than an idiot because he made discoveries instantly instead of pressing on every single statement. The entire gist is that he’s an idiot with occasional sparks of brilliance, not a master lawyer.

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

RogerRoger

@Ralizah That's a very fair point about the series' approach to evidence law. It made me laugh yesterday during "The Stolen Turnabout" when Phoenix used the fact that he'd contaminated evidence (the Sacred Urn he touched in Atmey's office) as a way to win. It's kinda like, yeah, well played an' all that, but it's not exactly something I would've boasted about, buddy!

Also fair points about Franziska's conduct, the Judge being... well, being the walking meme that he is, and the overall tone of the series thusfar. In hindsight and equipped with that context, I can see how things panned out the way they did on that specific point. I guess it's proof that I've become super-invested in these games; if I didn't care about them, I would've just shrugged at Franziska's malarkey and continued spamming the Cross button to move things along. I'm continually surprised and impressed at how much emotion this small collection of textboxes and sprites can evoke from me. Usually I'm dead against having to read my games, but I've been reacting to this far stronger than anything else I've played, and the characters are far more defined and compelling than most of their mo-capped, photo-realistic contemporaries.

On the whole Regina thing, my own reaction to such things is also based on experience, so I apologise if any vehemence on my part came across as judgemental. Wasn't my intention. And yes, I immediately thought of Scarface when I met Ben and Trilo, too! Which also meant that I spent a little longer suspecting them than I should've done. I wonder if that was one of the more subtle pop culture references worked in deliberately? I mean, "Turnabout Big Top" is where they started to go overboard with that kinda stuff (the Fresh Prince of Bel Air and A-Team lyrics during Moe's testimony were... a thing that happened) and I've noticed it becoming more prevalent in the third game, as well.

Well, you've only seen the predictions I've felt confident enough to share.

On that note, my theory regarding "Farewell, My Turnabout" only came half-true. I guessed that it'd end up being a morality play for Phoenix, split between pursuing a verdict he knew to be wrong to save Maya, or pursuing justice no matter the cost. I also guessed Engarde's guilt right before it was revealed by the trip to feed his cat, although I also thought it could've been a couple other folks, as well. What I didn't guess was how the second round of trials would go; I thought that the game would play out pretty simple and then present me with a binary choice at the end, but the whole race against time with Gumshoe out in the field, and working in competitive co-operation with Edgeworth, was freakin' genius. Best case yet, no question. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, pulse racing. I had all the answers, but no idea what would happen next. And yes, Franziska did manage to redeem herself somewhat, as well. I still can't abide her attitude, but at least I understand it now.

I completed "Turnabout Memories" and "The Stolen Turnabout" in Trials and Tribulations yesterday, and thoroughly enjoyed them. The first was another great way of excusing a tutorial (perhaps the best thusfar) and then it was followed up with an art theft which, at least to start with, was a refreshing change from all the bloodbaths I'd been wading through. It also played with my expectations quite a lot, which is a crucial trick for a threequel to employ. Whenever I feel 100% certain about something now, I get nervous! Really looking forward to the next few cases!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

RogerRoger

@LtSarge @render If you folks are tempted to revisit the series, then I can recommend the PS4 port of the original trilogy's remaster. It isn't a technical revolution, which does make it feel slightly awkward to begin with (because it's obvious you're playing a GBA game on a 4K television) but, in a world of glitchy ports and game-breaking patches, it's crucially competent. Its unified, straightforward presentation really grows on you, and it comes with quite a pleasant trophy list, as well.

I've also got The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles lined up, and will report on the specifics and technical performance of its PS4 port as and when.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

render

@RogerRoger Cheers for the recommend, I'll definitely grab the PS4 version. Just reading your reactions in the previous post and it's great how this game is just soooo over the top. The characters are just so ridiculously boastful, and I think when I played it I probably wouldn't have appreciated them as much as you are now!! Certainly in the games that I tend to play these days they are the polar opposite.

render

RogerRoger

@render I've definitely had to stop and remind myself not to judge certain characters by any pre-existing standards, on several occasions! Every witness, lawyer, suspect and perp has this particular quality that makes in-game sense, but would make for a disaster anywhere else.

***

Cleared both "Recipe for Turnabout" and "Turnabout Beginnings" and enjoyed them both, although I have a feeling the latter will prove much more memorable in the long run. That only leaves one final case, the last in the trilogy, which I'll tackle over the weekend (as I'm busy for the rest of the week, and don't wanna break up its flow). If the previous crescendo cases are anything to go by, and judging by the groundwork that Trials and Tribulations has been laying throughout, it should be a real treat!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Ralizah

@RogerRoger You've really been pounding out these cases!

Good decision to save Bridge to the Turnabout for the weekend. It's a masterful case. Easily my favorite in the original trilogy, and maybe in the entire series.

There's also a really unique twist that I'm dying to get your reaction to.

Also love Turnabout Beginnings. Gripping and dark from beginning to end, even if it's a bit on the short side.

Edited on by Ralizah

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

PSN: Ralizah

nessisonett

@RogerRoger @Ralizah Turnabout Beginnings and Bridge to the Turnabout are my two favourite cases in the trilogy. A much darker tone than ever really seen before, with killer twists and a compelling mystery that ties into the rest of the series’ mysteries. Enjoy!

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

Ralizah

@nessisonett It really does touch on literally almost every mystery, plot thread, and character arc in this trilogy. It even retroactively improves JFA, which is impressive. And how can you not just love a trial that climaxes with an exorcism. 😂

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

PSN: Ralizah

RogerRoger

@Ralizah @nessisonett Thanks, friends! Am itching to get back to it, and will be starting it later on this afternoon. Will return with thoughts as soon as I'm done!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

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