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Topic: I like The last of us part II but it’s story doesn’t always work

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Th3solution

@zupertramp Yeah, the release of the Part I Remake and especially the HBO show have really rejuvenated the awareness and subsequent discussion of the games. And fortunately most of the critique (especially of Part 2) seems more reasonable, calculated, and objective now having been removed from the bigotry, politics, and over-reactive review bombing type of rhetoric that was pervasive at first. (I mean, objectively speaking, no matter how bad one thinks the game is, would it justify a 1/10? Seriously? If it didn’t brick the console and is at least functional, it deserves a few points 😅. And to be clear, I also realize there were some 10/10’s being doled out as well simply based on the representation of diversity and the progressivism on display by the game, so it went both ways).

And having read some of the fair critique I do wonder how I’d see the game if I did a replay. I do realize more and more as my appraisal of art and media matures with age and heavier exposure that a lot of my feelings and analysis of a game depends on my mood at the time. We are all bringing something into the experience, so it makes sense we’ll take something different out. Of course many games have very little dependency on one’s prejudices to get their full effect (I mean, does it matter what’s going on in my life as to whether I enjoy a game of Tetris or Super Smash Bros?) but a lot of games, especially narrative or atmospheric games, seem to sit differently with me if played for example at a time of stress or when I’m sad or happy or whatever. Not to mention things like pre-game hype, expectations, and whether the plot has been spoiled. It all creates some bias that is hard to peel away. So it makes me wonder how I’d get along with Part 2 now.

Since you played it multiple times (5-6 I think you said?), how did you feel your mindset affected your playthrough, if at all?

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

zupertramp

Pizzamorg wrote:

I know there are people who liked Part 2's story, who just let the emotional manipulation take them [...]

I feel attacked lol. I never did take a shine to Abby though. Like I'm glad she became a less intolerable, less selfish human being (all it took was getting all of her friends killed) but yeah, not a fan. Lev on the other hand... 👍

I also can't imagine what a third would be about. Additionally I was very happy to accept Part 1 as the beginning and end of Joel and Ellie's story with no desire for a sequel for fear that things would just get more muddled (which they kinda did) but idk I'm oddly okay with the outcome of Part 2 in the end. Life is muddled and cruel and meaningless sometimes. I'm okay with art reflecting that, even if it's somewhat manipulative. Like watching the news report on the horrible things we do to each other feels manipulative but those things did happen after all.

But anyway, now I'm back to being very suspicious of any continuation of this story.

Edited on by zupertramp

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

zupertramp

@Th3solution I have to preface my experience with the game by saying I was largely in a bubble at that time. In fact TLoU Part 2, more than anything else, is what brought me to Push Square. I needed to talk about it after I finished it. I went into it having watched no trailers, having read no media... I mean I was extremely leery of a sequel but I had no choice, I had to play. Part 2 was required gaming as far as I was concerned and as such, there's no way I was going in knowing too much, or even with any expectations to speak of. Tabula rasa.

So my playthrough, thankfully, was not sullied or even colored by misleading trailers or anti-LGBTQ rhetoric or Druckmann hatred. I was fairly taken aback by what they did with Joel but honestly thought it took balls so I respected that. I absolutely loathed when I was switched over to Abby. Like I was literally like "nah this is some bull****!" 10 times worse than that MGS2 switcheroo. Then when I had to fight Ellie, lol, I had to take a break because I was like, I don't wanna do this. And so the Abby section was a slog but it's much less so in subsequent playthroughs. And honestly she has some pretty fun sections.

Overall I enjoyed the game the first time, though I was wrecked emotionally by the end but I thought the pacing was extremely poor. But I think that's because it's just structured so much differently than what we're all used to. Now playing through I know what to expect and the pacing doesn't seem nearly as awkward.

So really I've probably come to appreciate it more and more after multiple playthroughs.

Edited on by zupertramp

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

Th3solution

@zupertramp Ah man, thanks for sharing! I love that kind of personal back story. That’s really cool that it was this game that brought you to Push Square.

I’ve come to be a big believer in the importance of perspective — Knowing what a person’s individual mindset is, in order to give context to their thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Not ironically, that’s a key message of TLoU2. 😄

Since I played the game late, I had some unavoidable exposure to small spoilers. I was well aware of the vitriol being spewed from the bigots crawling out from under their rocks, the death threats from fans, the sheer craziness of it all. I chose to wait it out and hope for the best with avoidance of major plot spoilers. But it was next to impossible to not have an inkling about Joel’s murder, so I was expecting that, but I had no idea of the circumstances. I had heard a lot of murmuring about Abby and seen enough screenshots by accident to know she was a playable character. So I wasn’t as shocked by that either. Nevertheless, I still felt emotionally gut-punched as I progressed through the story, like a damp washcloth which had all its water wrung from it. And I was equal parts slack-jawed at the quality of the product on display.

Overall, the timing of my playthrough seemed to be ideal for whatever reason. I feasted on it. I let it consume me in the way that we gamers all know when we find something riveting. The ability to absorb it fell into place and my schedule opened up to have the time to devote to it. I’m not sure I can recreate the circumstances again. But I am curious to try another playthrough. Not now though. Probably will be tempted when the PS5 version drops though, if it ever does.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

zupertramp

@Th3solution definitely know what you mean about being consumed by a game. Those are the best gaming experiences. Lol, the neglect your real life responsibilities until completion type games. Or, as you mentioned, when the stars align in just the right way that you aren't neglecting other things. You just have the time and use it accordingly.

But yeah you can never re-experience a game for the first time obviously but I hope you get a chance to go through the game again. I'm a big believer in revisiting pieces of media... be it books or TV or whatever. It can be more rewarding than you think going in. Plus there's always things you don't catch or notice the first (or even second) time around. It's very enriching. Lol I think I've become that English teacher who makes you read the same poem over and over.

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

Pizzamorg

I do think Part 1 embodied more the sense of 'you are going to get out of this what you put in' than Part 2 does, given Part 2 is far more direct about its themes and its messages, clearly wanting less audience participation than the first game does.

However, if you are say religious or something, you are probably more used to stories with direct moral messages, so you may not mind the way in which Part 2 manages the presentation of its messaging. Likewise, if you aren't crazy invested in the first game, then that sense of outrage that comes from a feeling that these characters are being assassinated won't cloud things for you in quite the same way it does for others.

This one is especially pertinent for me, because while I still feel like I am in some sort of mourning period for Joel and that reaction is a powerful driving force for you as play those early hours and feel so synced with Ellie and her motivations, as the game wore on and seemed to become increasingly lost and muddled about what its actual purpose was, I completely lost the ability be even slightly objective how I felt about certain characters, because my hatred for what they did burned right through any good will they tried to generate with later actions made.

I would say this was part of some genius grand design, but it is very clear that there are actions taken by characters that are supposed to result in the audience forgiving past transgressions and simply embracing them as they were right now. But much like Tommy, and I guess ultimately Ellie, I simply couldn't, I was too broken and too lost to this games darkness.

And I know you could probably say that about any franchise, but I haven't experienced many sequels in any mediums that treat characters from previous stories, and manage the introduction of new characters, quite like Part 2 does.

Like I said in my mini review in the other thread, I had a lot of moments spoiled for me over the years, I was aware of all the hatred, controversy and shady stuff surrounding the game and there was really no way to divorce myself from that when I tried to process game just on its own individual value. And I'm still sorta processing whether that coupling actually made my experience with this game better, because I sorta expected to really hate the whole thing whereas I was fairly meh on it overall, or whether those moments I really hated would have maybe felt differently if I didn't have basically two and a half years to think about them before I experienced them for myself.

I'm definitely feeling pretty lost after binging both of these games over the last few weeks, that is for sure. Although I am enjoying reading and watching a lot of Part 2 content I avoided in the past, since I now no longer need to worry about getting anything else spoiled for me.

zupertramp wrote:

Pizzamorg wrote:

I know there are people who liked Part 2's story, who just let the emotional manipulation take them [...]

I feel attacked lol. I never did take a shine to Abby though. Like I'm glad she became a less intolerable, less selfish human being (all it took was getting all of her friends killed) but yeah, not a fan. Lev on the other hand... 👍

Lol no bad feelings meant, I promise. I do think the game can be at times extremely shallow, cheap and emotionally manipulative, but I don't begrudge anyone who just lets the tide take them here. That is clearly what the game wants you to do, and I did sometimes wonder during my playthrough whether I had locked myself into a needlessly futile loop. Constantly fighting against the game, when I could just let it drown my sense of self, and just assimilate whatever paradigm the game was now telling me this narrative and characters within it rested on.

Edited on by Pizzamorg

Life to the living, death to the dead.

zupertramp

@Pizzamorg oh I was absolutely joking. So definitely no worries. I've much appreciated your critiques as they've been extremely well put and compelling. Honestly, it's been one of those things where I read your comments, nod along thinking you're probably right, but dismiss it all the same because sometimes you just like what you like.

For what it's worth I'm feeling what you say you were feeling, about being stuck in a loop fighting against the game, but very much about the TV series instead. I really should just let go and let it be what it is but I think it's a pointless endeavor. So I tapped out after 6.

As far as messaging, I mean, I'd like to think I'm not particularly dull but, with Part 2, I didn't feel it got preachy or over the top. Could be I just got so lost in a haze of grief and anger at the passing of a loving, albeit over-protective father figure that I was too wrapped up in Ellie's quest for revenge to clearly read what seemed so obvious to others. Like you mention feeling lost and I don't think there's any better way to describe how it feels finishing that game, much less both back to back. So even by the end I was so damn empty I didn't pick up on much in the message department. Playing it again, sure it's more obvious, but idk, still doesn't feel in my face.

In any case, people are surely free to dislike the game. My grown son, for example (yeah I'm old) was really meh on it as well. Borderline dislike I'd say. Leaps better on gameplay but a weak, convoluted, and oddly structured story that just doesn't live up to the standards set by the first. And that's hard to argue with.

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

Zuljaras

I do not always agree with AngryJoe on gaming stuff but his review of TLoU 2 100% aligns with what I think about the game and its creators

And I loved the first one! When I pick a PS5 (someday) I will get Part I just on the principle!

While I hated the story in Part 2 I still got it and played it. That is the best thing about the second hand market. 20$ and it went to another gamer

The best part of the whole game (except the graphics and the gameplay) for me was the flashback with the hotel. Also, the sniper rifle training was cool!

ThinkDonald

I've never played but this gives off uncharted vibes. Is it similar to that?

ThinkDonald

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