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Topic: I like The last of us part II but it’s story doesn’t always work

Posts 41 to 60 of 69

Jimmer-jammer

@Th3solution hmm, that sounds like an interesting article. I personally don’t agree that game’s narratives are sup-par to other mediums. It’s a bit like comparing apples to oranges though. What I do think is that, when games try to emulate those other mediums, they often fall short for the reasons that you listed. They can still be fine in their own right and for what they are, but not really comparable to a concise, well paced 2.5 hour film. Much in the same way, it’s hard to compare that concise experience with a fleshed out, 32 chapter novel.

I think game’s narratives are best when they embrace the medium’s greatest strength: interactivity. Prey leaves the player stranded on an abandoned space station, left to piece the world around them together by combing through the wreckage and data left behind, then challenges the player to question how they chose to survive in that world.

Elden Ring provides a deeply rich mythology (large swathes of which can be completely missed) for the player to patch-work quilt together, their personal experience in doing so being the thread that holds it all together. At the end, you’re left with a quilt that may vary greatly in size, shape and pattern from the next, but it is your own. This is something special.

Death Stranding took the driving mechanic of almost every AAA game and turned it on its head, forcing the player to rethink mindless killing and focus on forging connections instead, all through its mechanics.

Nier: Automota flipped the script upon multiple play throughs. Bioshock’s end game revelation turned the entire experience into a satire, essentially mocking the player for doing exactly what they’re supposed to: what they’re told. I could go on.

These narratives are great because they play off of precisely what sets the medium apart. Even a game like the recent Guardians of the Galaxy, whose success relies greatly on it’s excellent writing and performances, is elevated by brilliant 4th wall-breaking moments that only a video game could provide.

With all that said, I do believe that both The Last of Us Part I and II are some of the finest examples of the blending of two mediums: games and film.

Edited on by Jimmer-jammer

“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis

Th3solution

@Jimmer-jammer Yeah, the article, although well-written, seemed to come across as a journalist just trying to make a headline by piling on to the TLoU2 phenomenon. The focus was more pointing out how the story was pieced together as an excuse to engage in the violent gameplay and begins to fall apart when taken in its own accord; much of what we’ve been saying. And I don’t agree completely with that analysis, although there are issues with the game narrative, I certainly feel like you bring up some good points about the danger of that generalization of “all game narratives are trapped in a reactionary mode of storytelling”. I do legit feel like many games approach narrative creatively and tell compelling stories for which the interactivity in an enhancement.

Edited on by Th3solution

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

zupertramp

@Th3solution "The way Abby changes is inspiring and I love a redemption story, but if I’m honest, it’s a really big leap to suddenly turn her back on all her friends and colleagues to go save two scars she barely knows."

If I may, I think in earlier describing who she is and how torture is out of character you've hit on why these two people were suddenly so important to her. It's worth remembering that Joel and Tommy both saved her life but, revenge being such a powerful force, she gave into it anyway. And quite brutally. I think the regret of that really flowed over when the two scars saved her. She partially regretted killing Joel (or at least now recognizes how empty of an act it was) because that's not ultimately who she was and the scars selflessly saving her (much the same way Joel and Tommy had) really made her face that... In a way that her enabling friends had not.

Edited on by zupertramp

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

zupertramp

@Jimmer-jammer i can totally see how the Mel moment you're describing came off as a Martha moment but idk, I guess I don't really stress over how it's revealed. It's true she could have gone over and found out herself but the end result is the same - she's just killed a pregnant woman which idk seems like a line crossed to me. Also I've played this game like 5-6 times and I never make out the word pregnant in Owen's gurgles so if it helps just pretend he's saying something unintelligible about Abby that Ellie never really hears as she's having a coincidental a-ha moment running events back in her mind. Like holy crap was that a bump let me check.

I do have way more a problem with her zonked out traumatized reaction to killing Nora than probably any other in the game though. Like, as far as I know you just hit her with a pipe which y'know, we've been doing that the whole game thus far. Just don't see the big deal on this one. A pregnant woman okay yeah that's heavy but you hit Nora with a pipe until she died... like, that's a description of every other death up to this point.

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

Jimmer-jammer

@zupertramp 5-6 times, wow! Yeah, conceptually it all makes perfect sense (and is rather brilliant) but the way in which ND chose to tell this story, we’ll it all gets a little unwieldy, and some of the moments just didn’t work for me, for the exact type of reason that you just stated.

“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis

zupertramp

@Jimmer-jammer I've appreciated reading this thread though. Because what you are describing (people who have a deep appreciation for the game but also recognize its missteps) is surprisingly niche.

But yeah, even with its faults, I really enjoy being immersed in the world they've created. Just shy of 180 hours if my PlayStation is to be believed.

As for should she have killed Abby, did her decision not-to make sense... I just kinda took it as Ellie having a realization of just how pointless it all was. Abby was all emaciated and half dead. Ellie herself was hurt, maybe mortally without antibiotics. And Ellie was in the position to do what she had traveled all over to do but Joel was still dead. I think that's her recognizing that, in those flashbacks. Those moments were now gone whether Abby is dead or not.

And in any case I think sometimes just getting to a place where you know you have the ability to do something is enough.

I mean, I can't remember what position you took on this but those are my thoughts. I kinda thought Abby deserved it but ultimately I'm okay that Ellie didn't go through with it also.

PSN: frownonfun
Switch: SW-5109-6573-1900 (Pops)

"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

Jimmer-jammer

@zupertramp I’m glad to hear the thread has had some benefit. There was so much vitriol swirling around the game’s release, it was hard to have any reasonable critical discussion around it and I hoped approaching it in this way could spur some healthy discourse.

“…sometimes just getting to a place where you know you have the ability to do something is enough.”

This is a really nice point. Thematically I still think Ellie killing Abby and Lev breaking the cycle through forgiveness, igniting Ellie’s redemption arc, would have been both more believable and more satisfying, but your point is an excellent explanation of Ellie’s motive in letting her go.

“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis

Th3solution

@KilloWertz I know Pizzamorg is not done yet so I won’t address them directly right now, plus I thought this old thread was probably more fitting for flaming the games plot (or attempting to defend it, as the case may be) and this thread is pretty much rife with spoilers so I can be a little more loose with the detail…

Anyways, I’ve been thinking a lot about what you and Pizza have said on the game’s main thread, and although I hesitate to rehash much of what’s been said before, I wanted to comment about the specific remark that (and I won’t quote it but will summarize) you had hoped to play the whole game as Ellie and didn’t want to have to experience the Abby subplot, and in particular were turned off by having to fight against the “hero” of the story.

It’s a fair opinion, but I’m trying to imagine the game where you play as Ellie taking down the bad guys for 18-20 hrs and living happily ever after and I just think the game we got is so much more interesting. We have tons of one-sided revenge plots where we kill the “big bad” at the end.

I know it was off-putting playing as Abby and having to fight Ellie, but I just never really felt that Part 2 was necessarily Ellie’s story or that Naughty Dog had to follow convention and make her the heroine. (And actually, I’d argue she ended up the heroine in the end anyways, although it was left fairly open-ended in that regard, but that’s a different discussion…) In the alternate universe where Naughty Dog makes a TLoU2 where Ellie is doling out unipolar revenge upon the evil Abby & Co… that just sounds a lot like God of War-lite. Or Ghost of Tsushima. Or Red Dead Redemption. Or Assassins Creed. Or [name the basic game with a solo protagonist who’s been wronged in some way]. And to be clear, I love all those games, and I love a good cut-and-dry, good-versus-evil dramatic solo journey. But we have plenty of them.

In an era where commercial success is most often tied to reshuffling prior IP and rehashing established game genres (COD, FIFA, sequels, prequels, remasters, reimaginings, revitalizations, ports… etc), making new IP with multi-million dollar budgets is extremely risky. So alternatively, utilizing an established franchise’s sequel to set a bold new path is a really important and consequential move. I applaud Sony for not taking the easy “MCU” route and making TLoU2 a game that just tries to rehash notes from the first game and just swaps Joel for Ellie with some added polish and sparkle. But it seems that gamers clearly want just that though — as is evidenced by their purchasing behavior where annualized iterations of the same gaming IP’s top the charts month after month. Or where gamers pour endless hours into the same game with occasional live-service updates.

One of the largest criticisms of Sony has been the lack of variety in their first party output. Although I’ve not played either yet, both the Horizon and GoW sequels over the last year have received some criticism for being “more of the same” and although both are apparently excellent, they both seem “safe.” I suspect Spider-Man 2 will likewise be mostly a reskin with a relatively innocuous narrative construction. (Again to be clear, I’ll no doubt adore each of those three listed sequels)

So I guess what I’m trying to say is that if we aren’t going to get new IP from AAA studios, at least getting new wrinkles on existing IP where developers can really stretch themselves creatively is the second best thing. Playing a morally grey TLoU2 where you play as the “enemy”, buck some of the gaming narrative trends, and explore some socio-political viewpoints is an appreciated approach.

The other thought I was having about what had been said (and I may have been Pizzamorg and not yours, I can’t remember) is that Abby’s (and Yara/Lev’s) “side quest” could have or should have been DLC and omitted from the core game to make it all Ellie’s. Yes, that could have been done, but personally I appreciate the restraint of Sony to not cut content out and sell it back to us with DLC or a season pass. That practice is one of my main pet peeves of modern gaming. But to each their own.

And again, I don’t necessarily disagree with many criticisms like — the pacing issues of the Abby story, some of the strange narrative logic present that makes one suspend disbelief over and over again, the emotional manipulation, the inconsistency of character behavior, the “Deus Ex Machina” types of writing to get the plot out of a corner they painted themselves into, etc. These are legit complaints and I’m not discounting them. But for some reason it just didn’t bother me. I’ve played oodles of dumber plot threads and more ridiculous nonsense in the past. I think the quality of production and acting performance in TLoU2 make the writing inconsistencies stand out more in this game, whereas most games also have extensive required “disbelief suspending” but we usually give them a pass because they exist in a ridiculous fictional world, whereas The Last of Us feels so grounded in reality that we (perhaps unfairly) expect more.

But alas, I respect each person’s opinion and I appreciate that you all have been respectful for those of us who really liked the story, or at least don’t actively dislike it, I guess. Just thought I’d drop some of the counter thoughts on my mind while they were still fresh.

(And sorry for the long-winded droning there. I’m sure I’ve just added a few more users to my “blocked by…” list.)

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

CuteBoyMnM

@Th3solution I've also been reading the posts about The Last of Us: Part 2 from Pizza's journey and I just wanted to add my two cents. I also appreciate the risk Naughty Dog took for this game's story even if it doesn't reflect well for them financially. A good chunk of that risk I think stems from two faux pas of storytelling; the death of a main character and an anti-climactic ending. Both of these aren't conventional in most stories for a good reason but I personally think they work for what this game was going for, faults and all.

Something I guess I never understood was how this game is "preachy" per se. Nothing in the game ever seemed to imply I should feel bad for what happened because of my actions as a player like it was blaming "me". I always interpret this as the character justifying their actions and how it reflects them rather than projecting the character's faults/feelings onto myself and my views (more or less how I feel about Spec Ops: The Line). People view things differently and I know I'm pretty dumb but it's something that piques my curiosity when reading about The Last of Us.

Regardless, It is good to still see some discussion, positive or negative, about this game especially years after its release. I'll defend this game as something special to me but I'm open to being wrong about certain things.

CuteBoyMnM

PSN: m48blueteam

KilloWertz

@Th3solution I knew going in that you'd eventually have to play as Abby since I intentionally spoiled the game for myself when the huge spoiler leaks were happening. Some of the things I had saw people talking about had me concerned that I might not even want to play the game, so I checked out the spoilers. It's not so much that playing as Abby was a problem. Unnecessary, sure, but I would have been fine with it if it wasn't so drawn out (hard to argue that her part of the game wasn't incredibly long) and you didn't have to fight Ellie.

With all due respect, I don't see how any sane person could think that Ellie ended up being the heroine in the end. She was literally left completely alone and missing a hand, with the former being her biggest fear in the world. I'd say giving her that in the end couldn't be further from making her a heroine. I'm not saying it had to be all happy and great, but if they had ended it before she decided to go out for one last revenge fight and ending up costing her everything she had left, it would have been a much better ending. I probably would have been more positive about the game then. Instead she is left with nothing except she's alive, but with nothing to really live for.

Again, it didn't have to be all happy, predictable, etc. I actually gave them credit earlier on for going places most games wouldn't have the guts to, but at the same time it's not the same as all of those other games listed. Part 1 was already it's own thing, and this would have been too even if you just played as Ellie. Ghost of Tsushima was an open world action RPG, any God of War revenge games were significantly different than the Sony template they turned the new "series" into, Assassin's Creed is either significantly different or like Ghost of Tsushima now, and so on. I don't think any game you mentioned is similar to The Last of Us other than they are 3rd person games too. If you just mean that the good vs. evil storyline only, then sure, but if you don't want people to want that, then don't make a game where the original built Ellie up to being the fan favorite or market it until it got close to release as Ellie's story.

I will say that I was fine with getting some of the other side of the story, nor did I need Ellie to be portrayed as some saint. I don't remember enough of the way the story was told to tell you if I would agree with Pizzamorg about the game being preachy or constantly telling you that killing is bad and Ellie is too. I obviously remember the story itself well, just not exactly how strongly some things might have appeared like that. Just like The Walking Dead in which the series is clearly copying in some ways, it's obvious that they've all had to do bad things to survive and that humans were technically worse than the zombies. That's clear in the first game, and even clearly in the second game.

To me, some of the things they did with the story in the 2nd half gave me the impression that I was supposed to sympathize with a person that just literally killed the father figure of the main character. Say what you want about how good this and that were, how they took things in new directions, etc., but once again a lot of people bought the game being under the impression it would be Ellie's story. It was marketed as such in trailers and the fact that it was her face on the cover sure gives quite the impression as well. So, I wouldn't criticize people for expecting that when that is exactly what they were told it was going to be until it got closer to release (and possibly not until the spoilers leaked if I remember correctly). I said in the end I would have been fine playing as Abby for smaller portion just to get some of her side of things and get to know the character more, but it dragged on and on (and obviously the fight with Ellie being my breaking point). Cut out some of her content and not end it with her being chewed up and spit out and left with absolutely nothing like Neil did and I would have been perfectly fine, as I thought it was a really good game technically and gameplay wise. I'm clearly rambling and probably spinning my wheels now, so I'll stop and hopefully make better points in another response.

Edited on by KilloWertz

PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386

LN78

@KilloWertz We're at the farmhouse. Tommy comes along and implores Ellie to head out on one more quest for vengeance because he's found out where Abby is. Dina begs Ellie to stay and says if she goes it's all over between them. Long slow camera push into Ellie's eyes. Cut to black. The End.

LN78

Pizzamorg

Hey it is the me who finished the game!

Not to rehash the same thoughts across two threads, but to more address @Th3solution post above, and I guess stress a distinction I clearly haven't made clear enough, there is no narrative development in The Last of Us Part 2 I necessarily disagree with inherently in itself, but I strongly disagree with how those ideas have been executed at almost every step of the way.

In a lot of ways, Joel or Ellie, probably always had to die. They've gone on the grandest quest their universe could ever contain. Going out into the world on another journey, it would feel like a retread or a poor man's riff on the first game. But a personal tale of revenge? Now that is a logical motivation to grab that backpack and head into the world once again.

But how Joel dies? And that whole two or so hours of game leading up to that moment? Awful. At least as far as I am concerned.

Part 1 was a game defined not by its ideas, but the execution and presentation of them. If I summarised the plot of Part 1 to someone who has never played it before, it will probably sound really boring. It sounds like countless other stories, because it basically is.

But it is through the performances, the animations, the mature, complex presentation of the world and the characters etc it became so much more than the vanilla mechanical beats that make up its plotline.

Part 2 for me is the opposite of that, where it is actually a much more interesting, and unique, idea, especially for a game but the execution makes it just absolute poopypoo.

I will agree in a general sense that yes, this would have been a far more generic game had it just been a 15 hour linear adventure about how Ellie goes to Seattle, kills a bunch of cartoon villains and lives happily ever after with Dina and her weird Twilight Breaking Dawn CG baby.

The change in protagonist, the shift in perspective, is an excellent idea and cohesively fits into the world of The Last of Us. A world where reductive ideas like 'good and evil' are gone, and just replaced by the need to survive. Playing effectively the same game twice, but from two different, biased, perspectives which when looked at together as a whole are somewhere close to the truth would have been an excellent idea. But that isn't really what the game does. Even now I've rolled credits, I still don't get what Abby's portion of the game achieves for the wider game around it.

We go on an almost ten hour long detour through a completely disconnected, meaningless and irrelevant story thread as a character we hate at the start, barely tolerate by the end, and come out of the other side of it only more exhausted than we went into it, and no more enlightened or changed in how we perceive the events of this narrative.

That also disregards things like how the gameplay is massively disconnected from the narrative. The themes and narrative intent are wildly unfocused. Its messages muddled beneath a meandering, lost, narrative looking for purpose. All of the grey, all of the nuance, that makes Part 1 so powerful is completely lost in Part 2's narrative, which both manages to be ham fisted and loud in what it is saying, without it really ever saying much at all.

I also reject the term 'heroine'. This could have easily been Ellie's story of revenge, without her ever needing to be a hero, because such terms don't really exist in The Last of Us. Many jarring elements like the brutal violence Ellie uses to kill people with, right up until the dying seconds of the game, could have easily blended in far better in a game about Ellie absolutely losing herself, and everything she holds dear, to her need for revenge. In this version of the story, knowing more about Abby or not is irrelevant, her act is the only thing that matters, everything else is perceived through Ellie's increasingly warped view of the world. If at her darkest, lowest, moment like perhaps the torture of Nora, or the killing of Owen and Mel, and it is there Ellie's story becomes intertwined with that of Lev and Yara, getting dragged into the conflict between the Scars and the WLF, and Ellie almost becoming their Joel, while perhaps a little on the nose, it would have more neatly folded the game into itself as a package with clear focus and intention. But not in contrived ways like how Joel died, at least IMOm

The final third or so of the game, that arcs to Ellie ultimately learning to forgive herself for the guilt she is carrying of never being able to tell Joel she forgives him or at least never having the chance to, personified through the gift of allowing Abby to live, would have been far better earned to me as her focus shifts to saving Lev from the Rattlers. Meaning her priority is no longer killing Abby.

This way Ellie finds the same newfound purpose Joel once found, which breathed lift into the shambling husk he starts as, turning him into everyone's favourite TV Dad by the end. She uses Lev to drag herself out of the hole, to let go. To survive, and endure. Not waste the life Joel gave her and then Abby gave her. To live life fully, with purpose. A far more positive cycle to focus on.

Also on reflection too those lines from Abby about Ellie wasting her second chance. And how Joel robbed her of meaning by not letting the Fireflies kill her. It all just works better this way.

Edited on by Pizzamorg

Life to the living, death to the dead.

Th3solution

@CuteBoyMnM Your thoughts seem to align with my own. Almost as if I’d written them myself. Except I’ve never played Spec Ops: The Line.

@LN78 I actually wouldn’t have minded that ending. I’m calling it TLoU2: The LN Director’s Cut if it ever gets made. I thought the farmhouse section was a really refreshing contrasted setting and that would have been quite bold if they had left it open-ended where we never knew if Ellie stayed or left.

@KilloWertz Yeah, when I was mentally comparing the hypothetical TLoU2: The Killowertz Director’s Cut where Ellie is the only protagonist and goes on a one-sided revenge adventure I meant narratively speaking it could end up similar to GoT, GoW, etc. Not gameplay-wise. Just similar in the commonality of it being one man (or woman) out for revenge.

As far as the ‘bait and switch’ with Ellie, that’s a fair complaint. Perhaps we were all sold a bill of goods with Joel and Ellie. But honestly I loved the Ellie character before playing Part 2 and I loved her even more by the end of it. Fighting against her didn’t change that. So, on that subject…

…And regarding my apparent insanity (strong! It’s been a while since I was called that! 😅), I might be misunderstanding the term “hero” or “heroine.” I merely meant “the primary character who, in the face of danger, combats adversity through feats of ingenuity, courage, or strength.”

At the risk of sounding like a High School book report — to me, of the four principle types of dramatic conflict (person vs. person, person vs. nature, person vs. supernatural, and person vs. self) the game’s core message lies beneath that last one — person vs. self. Despite the apparent defeat Ellie suffers and the physical disability in the end, she conquered her greatest foe — herself. She won. Her redemption is complete. Yes she lost everything - she lost her partner, she lost her baby, she lost her last connection to Joel by losing her ability to play guitar… But she changed and learned in the end. She came out a better person, and walked away from giving into her rage and chose to spare Abby. To be cheesy and make a Star Wars analogy, she didn’t give in to the dark side; she put her lightsaber down when faced with the final test. She felt mercy. She felt regret. She suffered, but it brought about change. This is a story of hope sprouting in the face of despair. This is not a story about Ellie vs. Abby, it’s a story about each of them vs. their own inner character.

We all make mistakes. We don’t go on killing sprees but we do things to other people that we regret. We only lose when we fail to learn from our failures and missteps and chose to continue down a path that leads to more suffering.

…sorry — I may or may not have been going through some personal stuff when I played this game. 😅

@Pizzamorg Interesting thoughts and honestly thank you for your time to chronicle your playthrough. It’s been fun to read. Just because I don’t agree completely doesn’t mean it wasn’t a joy to see your well constructed impressions.

And hopefully I was clear that I acknowledge some of the narrative misgivings you mention. No argument there.

And I think you are on board with what I liked about the game’s message and what it has to say about slaying our inner demons, forgiving ourselves, etc, and I can’t disagree that maybe your version where Abby is an NPC that we don’t spend half the game with could have worked really well. Who knows. I’m sure Naughty Dog could have pulled that off perfectly fine, given their talent. If Joel’s murder was framed and executed better, and then Lev is used as the catalyst to create Ellie’s redemption, with the mercy given to Abby being more of a side manifestation of her recapture of her humanity, that might work. We’ll call it TLoU2: The Pizzamorg Director’s Cut. 😄

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

KilloWertz

@LN78 That would have been better too. Unless they ever made a Part 3 and Dina was either there or not of course, but I still would have preferred your ending. At least it wouldn't have been unnecessarily cruel to Ellie.

@Th3solution Ok, that's fair. We'll chalk that part up as a misunderstanding I suppose.

It didn't hurt whether I still liked the Ellie character or not. I just hate the way Neil ended up treating her in the game, especially at the end. It basically felt like he was penalizing or whatever you want to call it in the end by making her greatest fear in the world her reality. Whether I was right or wrong in my interpretation, that is how I took it back in 2020.

I'll cue the Cypress Hill song for you. You had it right to an extent. Given everything that happens in the game, I wouldn't consider her one in the traditional sense since it's a very bleak story overall. This kind of a story doesn't really have heroes and heroines, as nobody is truly good because of things they have to or choose to do.

I get your side in regards to the story and how everything played out, and maybe I'll see things a bit differently if I ever play the game again (obviously not a fan of the story, but won't ever get rid of the game). Maybe the TV show will help me see things differently. I don't know, but as of right now I still think they could have ended it before she throws everything away and you possibly still could have gotten some of what you wanted out of it too. I will also always believe the Abby portion of the game is way too long. If it was several hours shorter, I probably would have had much less of a problem with it. Still wouldn't have been thrilled about playing as a character I hated, but I at least could have respected the attempt to show things from another perspective had it not dragged on and on.

Love it or hate it, but I am still talking about the game nearly 3 years later, so I guess that's something.

PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386

Th3solution

@KilloWertz It’s cool, I get you. And you’re absolutely right — the game gets under one’s skin, regardless of whether it’s for the positive or the negative. And yes - even I agree that the pacing of the Abby sections dragged a bit too long. I do remember at the time wishing we could get on with it and get back to playing as Ellie. In that sense, the final act after the farmhouse was welcome, but it ended up dragging a little too much also. Thankfully for me, the payoff at the end was worth it.

In comparison in my mind keeps coming back to Red Dead Redemption and RDR2. The first game had a excellent epilogue, I thought. So satisfying. The second game dragged on way to long at the end and the whole last section almost ruined the fantastic climax, but that’s just my opinion.

And thanks for considering my own interpretation of the game and it’s inherent message. I know that stuff I wrote earlier all sounds eye-rollingly sappy. I’m really not as weird as I sound. Usually.

I also echo your anticipation / concern about how the TV show will either enhance or change my perception. I have a feeling it could really blow up in our face, depending how it’s handled. The other wild card is going to be Part 3. It’s fully possible that there could be a course correct done and it starts off with Ellie sitting on the bed with a guitar in hand, somber music in the background, and Dina walks through the door with baby in hand and we start off with Ellie back in a good place. There’s also equal chance that it starts off with Lev and Abby rummaging in the wilderness half-dead and planning a new plot against Ellie, golf club in hand. If they do that and retcon Abby’s redemptive arc I’m going to feel really betrayed. Knowing Druckmann though, I wouldn’t put it past him. Part 3 is several years away, I suspect, but Fsctions 2 also has a chance to either build on and clarify things, or subvert and alienate the fans further.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

KilloWertz

@Th3solution I finished and loved the first Red Dead Redemption, but I started and never finished the sequel mainly because it felt way too much. There's plenty of things you have to do in the game that seem really tedious. I think I remember talking about that at one point on here in the past, and I may someday give it another shot as I do have it installed on my external SSD (along with plenty of other PS4 games). Anyways, I can see the comparisons in that regard then as Part 2 is not the only game I thought went on for too long.

I have some faith in the show doing it at least no worse since Neil won't be in the driver's seat (I know there was technically a co-writer, but it was clearly his game). The showrunner has proven he knows what he's doing. It will still be interesting to see how it is all handled, and I do really hope they don't do everything that Part 2 did with Abby's story. I know it has to be a part of Season 2, and I'm ok with that, but a large portion of Season 2 just being Abby and company would be even more disappointing than the 20 hours you had to spend with them in the game. Part 2 will still have to be done in more than one season, but still, you only get one hour a week with the show instead of potentially plowing through that portion of the game if you are able.

I have no idea what Part 3 will end up being, but reigning himself in would be the first thing that needs to be done. Have it go back to the more focused narrative of the first one, with Abby being only a side character for the duration. I'm not saying "generic", but less characters and less meandering like the first one. Without putting much thought into it, a twist of having Ellie and Abby being forced to work together in the end wouldn't be something I'd be opposed to. Only if it makes sense of course, as I didn't really put any thought into that idea like I said.

PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386

Th3solution

@KilloWertz I do think I remember some talk about RDR2 and I forgot you didn’t finish it. I’ll not spoil it, but suffice it to say that I feel silly saying it, but it’s yet another game I ended up adoring but can’t argue that it wasn’t paced really poorly at some points.

As far as the TV show, there’s a good chance they cut out much of the side story content that doesn’t add to the end conclusion (so, a lot of the Abby side content). Unless they spread it out to two seasons, which would be really annoying.

As for Part 3, there is literally no telling. Logic would say that there’ll be a continuation of Ellie or Abby’s story, but maybe Lev becomes the new protagonist. Perhaps one of the Scars murders Abby and so Lev goes on a hunt to reconcile it. Or maybe it’ll be Dina’s story. Or the baby grows up to be some kind of BA assassin that has some kind of adventure. Tommy is still alive, right? Maybe this will be his story.
… Most of that sounds really boring on the surface. 😂

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

zupertramp

Really enjoying the resurgent dialogue on this topic. Some genuinely thought provoking back and forth going on here. Kudos. I have my opinion on the game but I appreciate hearing out other people when the criticisms (or praise) seem to be coming from a reasonable place.

I will say I definitely tend to see it like @Th3solution in that I view part 2 as two people battling inner demons. And so Abby, as much as I dislike her, isn't really a side character with a side story. That's what Lev and Yara are all about. They are the catalysts for her growth/arc.

PSN: frownonfun
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"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig

KilloWertz

@Th3solution Yeah, the more I think about it the more I can't see them doing anywhere near all of Abby's content. Like I said earlier, that would require people to be willing to sit through what could be almost an entire season with no Ellie at all. Obviously I wouldn't want to watch that. I still think Part 2 will be across more than one season regardless though, as there's more to tell and expand on even without all of Abby's story.

Joel comes "back from the dead" as a zombie and bites Neil Druckmann. He somehow mutates into something even more powerful than a bloater, so Ellie and Abby team up to take out the Druckmannator zombie to save what is left of the world. Neil the writer can't stop there though, and after they defeat him, they fall in love. Not doing it on purpose, there is a shark in the background as they kiss, but it doesn't jump since he has no idea what he did.

PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386

Pizzamorg

It is interesting, because I would say Joel and Ellie's story sorta felt done at the end of Part 1, which is why Part 2 is so easy to ignore (amongst other reasons) if you so choose to do so. I know they had a whole life ahead of them at the end of Part 1, but you didn't really need to see them living with Tommy, contending with the lie etc It could easily just end there as the audience sits with their own beliefs of where this all ends.

But they found a way to continue the story forwards, in a way some were happy with, others not so much.

But then by the end of Part 2, Joel and Ellie's story again feels finished to me. Joel in a literal sense, but since Ellie also gave up on her goal in Part 2 for some reason and lost everything in the process, what exactly do you do with that character now? Just have her wandering around the world preaching non violence? That sounds bad.

They set up Abby and Lev though with a clear continuation point as they scour the country to look for the Fireflies and help them rebuild that organisation. But I just... I dunno, unless they deliberately hide that that is what the game is going to be about and hope there are no leaks like... how do you sell that? I know there are people who liked Part 2's story, who just let the emotional manipulation take them and liked Abby by the end, but I think there are enough people that absolutely hate Part 2, that a game like this would be an extremely hard sell.

Edited on by Pizzamorg

Life to the living, death to the dead.

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