Topic: I like The last of us part II but it’s story doesn’t always work

@MaulTsir This guy gets it!

Jackson is the only community of people we see where there is something resembling normality and perhaps this is why Joel and Tommy react the way they do early on in the game. In a way it's a reflection of their living in relative peace and comfort, perhaps they become too complacent.

The other groups are living under siege and react accordingly although one thing I did notice on the island: no Infected.

Anyway glad you enjoyed the game and speak eloquently in 'defence' of it. I think it's pretty darned special myself and have found the discourse surrounding it ever so tiresome especially from those on this site that seem to want to try and convince people like us that actually like the game that in fact we're wrong and are deluding ourselves.

Also this ludo bollocks is just some fashionable ***** people bring up to try and make themselves look smart. It holds little if any merit in my view.

@Col_McCafferty yeah I mean if you want a game where everything goes your way and the main protagonist always wins you really should be going and playing games like Spiderman, I think people are to use to everything working out exactly how they want it.

I really did enjoy it and I avoided most of the spoilers but did see alot of the negativity when it was first released and after playing for about 5 hours I just thought wow really what is peoples problems. I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it seems like people want to be negative these days, its the cooler and smarter thing to do, also people read way to far into things.

But overall I loved the game, thought the story was brilliant, the gameplay was improved from the first (which is another point of negativity i don't get alot of people rant on about how boring and repetitive it was but it was an improved version of the first game they love so much) the graphics and visuals were fantastic especially on the ps5.

I will say this though I'm really happy for them to leave that story there, and if a 3rd game does come along set maybe in a different country or 20 years in to the future or something with totally new characters.

I have to say, I have less of an issue with that part of the story. I genuinely enjoyed the game and even though I didn't know Mel, or Nora in the first part of the game, their deaths had weight and consequence. Approaching the aquarium as Abby that final time was so tense, even though I knew what I would find. The part of the story I just don't think works is how Ellie, Dina and Tommy survive back to Jackson. Broken arm, headshot with high velocity weapon and pregnant/infection just doesn't work. I actually laughed when Tommy comes in at the farm. I think so much of the game is to such a high standard that when there is a mis-step, it really stands out.

It must be the way that I look at games but personally I try not to over analyse a plot / story as otherwise you will always manage to pick holes in it. Pretty much every game and film you could say has issues this way so it's best just to enjoy it for what it is and take away what the writer / director was trying to get across in telling the story. For that reason I really enjoyed this game, and it's left a really lasting impression on me just as the first one did. I started to play it through again to get the platinum but have ended up leaving it for the moment so that I can revisit it down the road to see if I still feel the same way.

@Jimmer-jammer

I found this older thread where spoilers could be discussed more readily. I put some ideas in the main thread, but when I saw this one I read through the comments (something I avoid a year ago when I hadn’t played it yet) and appreciated some of the other aspects of how people interpreted the game.

As the the Mel pregnancy reveal moment, I actually didn’t find it corny or terribly emotionally manipulative. There is this unwritten rule with babies and animals where somehow they are off limits; but I can see how it doesn’t quite make sense. I’ve often found it ironic in games and film where the audience recoils in horror when a dog is killed, all the while humans are being slaughtered by the dozens. I’m not discounting this emotion, just pointing out that it doesn’t quite make sense when you try to dissect it objectively. I think it comes from the greater emotional investment we place on protecting the innocent or the helpless.

But I agree, the moment would have been better if she discovered Mel’s pregnancy herself, rather than the “Pr..preg…nant…” dying words from Owen (which like I said in the other thread, Owen was pretty annoying for most of the game for me. Not sure why Abby pined for that goofball)

I also felt the final sequence where she tries to play the guitar without her two fingers wasn’t corny or cheesy at all, and I would have like to see her shed a tear as she realized she would have to give up the guitar, even though she had just promised the little kid she would teach him. But I can see that they wanted to convey a feeling of peace with it, rather than remorse or sadness at having to move on to the next phase of her life.

As for those who feel that Ellie should have just killed Abby, I disagree. I think that I would have really lost respect for Ellie, and the ending that we got seemed to relay a sense of redemption. Granted, the logical me questions how someone can do a 180 about-face after trekking all over kingdom come hunting Abby down and then has mercy on her in the end. But I think part of that might be seeing Abby in the vulnerable and broken state she was in, perhaps Ellie finally felt remorse, pity, and forgiveness for her.

As the player, I went through the same emotion. I hated Abby at first. I think Druckmann said that was the whole point, he wanted the player to hate Abby and then turn around and end up rooting for her. In my case that happened, when I saw Abby’s backstory and how she interacted with friends and even with the siblings, you grew to actually like her, which I was surprised at myself for that. I thought that perhaps the act of playing as a protagonist automatically makes you like and root for them, and maybe that’s true, but I think it’s more than that. I think the perspective of seeing her narrative arc honestly endeared me to her.

Overall, I really do think there was progress made in the ludonarrative dissonance arena. It will always be difficult to make a video game fit narratively because most games involve large scale killing. But this game has come as close as any to making each death feel impactful. Sure, Ellie and Abby don’t weep over every victim, but as the player I felt the emotion of nearly all deaths with the way they gurgle their last breath, scream out if shot in the leg, or have another NPC cry out their name wailing in grief.

And to be sure, I think movies have had the issue for years (and still do) with narrative dissonance where some deaths are more meaningful than others. Nearly every action movie has the same issue.

Anyways, interesting thoughts in here and this is a game that is really enjoyable to discuss and see what everyone gleaned from it.

@Th3solution I’ve done a lot of digesting since this thread began so I may feel different about certain things. My main concern with the narrative remains believability.

I still feel pretty strongly about how Ellie discovered Mel’s pregnancy, and how it was the unbelievably earth shattering moment for her. With this being delivered in Owen’s dying breath, more profundity is placed on this revelation and it can’t carry the weight for me. It relies on an unestablished and unearned in-universe logic, established between hostile strangers no less, that killing babies is so much more scarring than killing anyone else. Yes, in real life it’s easy to relate to, but within this universe that is overflowing with every level of violence and cruelty imaginable, it just doesn’t ring true to me without something to support it. Perhaps a note somewhere detailing this faction’s philosophy on protecting the innocent or its perceived importance of procreation in the wake of mass casualties…something. I also find it statistically improbable that not one of the women Ellie has brutally killed up to this point was pregnant.

Even worse, it’s completely unbelievable to me that this would be Owen’s last word, especially upon the later revelation that he cheats on Mel literally hours before this happens, causing me to seriously question that he cares about Mel or their baby enough for the final firing between synapses to produce such a result. This reduces Mel’s entire character and pregnancy down to a simple plot device. Ultimately, it’s just not believable to me, looping back to my main issue with some of the narrative beats.

I’ve chilled on the narrative dissonance stuff 😅

As for the ending, I do still firmly believe that Ellie should have killed Abby. I think it would have been more believable and more powerful for her to have traumatized Lev in the same way Joel traumatized Abby, and Abby traumatized Ellie, then have Lev be the one to finally stand up and break the cycle by forgiving Ellie. In their weakened, emotionally desolate states, they would have only each other, and together they would set off, completely broken. Lev’s act of compassion would ignite Ellie’s redemption arc.

As it stands, I think adding one scene within the current ending could have tied things better to the first game. I would have loved to have seen this game end with a lie, just as the first did. A moment for Ellie to find herself in similar shoes to Joel. She lies to Tommy that she killed Abby. Just a thought.

Edit: also, thank you for your impressions and theories! I love reading all of the different thoughts and feelings about this game. Naughty Dog definitely achieved something here and it’s fun to discuss.

@Th3solution sorry for the double post here, but I definitely felt the same as you when it comes to Abby. I also thought she was a great character and I really enjoyed getting to understand her, eventually flipping my initial hatred of her on its head.

@Jimmer-jammer as for the pregnancy thing, i honestly think that killing babies in the game-world would be just as big a deal as it is irl… as in the game world humanity is on the precipice and any killing of a newborn human child regardless of tribal-birthright would be repugnant to any person still clinging to what little humanity/sanity that they have remaining. More importantly narratively speaking though was Dina’s pregnancy. The moment Ellie clicked in regards to having just murdered a pregnant woman, it was surely a shocking touchstone to her beloved and the hopeful dreams she has been subduing in regards to the possibility of a future for them and the soon to be born JJ.

@colonelkilgore “…as in the game world humanity is on the precipice and any killing of a newborn human child regardless of tribal-birthright would be repugnant to any person still clinging to what little humanity/sanity that they have remaining”

This is absolutely a fair point and one that I honestly hadn’t really considered.

As for Dina’s pregnancy…this one was not lost on me as I think that’s exactly what ND was aiming for, and I love this beat. The problem for me is that how it unfolds is not believable. Had Ellie discovered Mel’s pregnancy in a more organic way it could have been brilliant. Instead, they went for a big shock moment without adequately setting it up and unfortunately, at least for me, produced a moment of utter cheese that notably and viscerally ejected me out of the drama of what should have been a powerful moment. I actually burst out laughing. I’ve been trying to unravel why ever since. Maybe it’s me 😬

@Jimmer-jammer no maybe it’s me tbh. I always like the way in which you explain your perspective whether it aligns with my own or not.

I’m just very ‘pro’ everything The Last of Us part 2 did in all honesty… it’s one of those rare pieces of art/entertainment that… for me at least hit on every level. As someone who places a games narrative ‘relatively’ low on the totem poll, I was shook to my core by how it hit with me. It was pitch as back, as ugly as sin… and for me is alongside Empire Strikes Back and The Godfather part 2 (& Apocalypse Now which obviously is’nt a sequel like the other two but… is supremely dark and ugly). If I’d have read this comment prior to me playing it, I’d be as shocked as anyone by my reaction.

@colonelkilgore Likewise! I’m never really sure how anything I write comes across and I struggle in general to interact on the forums in the capacity that I’d like to due to real life circumstances but I always appreciate our chats.

Nothing wrong with loving the game! I’m happy that you enjoyed it so much. I love a lot about it but I still view it as a flawed masterpiece, though I don’t think there is really a ‘right’ way to feel about it. The only reason I’m so critical with it is because of how much I love the series (heck, our oldest is named Ellie) and how much it gets right for me. I also lean towards darker, grittier material in general but believe it or not, I’ve never seen The Godfather part 2. I know, I need to sort my life out 😂

@Jimmer-jammer Well said and good points made. I can see your issues, and if I’m honest, I had a few times during the playthrough when I questioned the believability of the narrative and the character motives. First of all, I think Ellie was all over the place with her relationship with Joel. They show all these interactions and moments when she was fuming mad at him, trying to distance herself from him, giving him the cold shoulder, and even in that last flashback, “It was my chance to make a difference and you robbed me of that! I’ll never forgive you…” and then shortly after that she’s sacrificing her own mind, body, and soul to avenge his death? It seems a bit of a jump. I know she’s an angsty teenager but her mood was all over the place and it made it slightly, well… unbelievable.

Furthermore, after finding out the actual jovial nature of Abby and her soft heart and loyalty to friends, it’s quite a jump for her to be this rage-filled maniacal killer who would torture someone. I don’t know. Maybe people would be like that in the apocalypse, but I think nowadays only a deranged anti-social cold-blooded lunatic would shoot someone in the leg, then beat them with a golf club specifically to torture them.

The way Abby changes is inspiring and I love a redemption story, but if I’m honest, it’s a really big leap to suddenly turn her back on all her friends and colleagues to go save two scars she barely knows.

Despite all the inconsistency, I didn’t have too hard a time to suspend disbelief and roll with it. I think we swallow the character misrepresentation because the story speaks to the monster inside all of us, that no matter what grudges we hold, at least we’re not as bad as these characters. So if they can change and bury the hatchet, so can we. It reminds me of Frodo in LotR where Sam asks him why he doesn’t just kill Golem, and he responds something along the lines of “I have to believe he can change, which would mean that I can also.”

@colonelkilgore "The Godfather Part 2" is probably the best film I've ever seen. "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Apocalypse Now" are both in my Top 10 films ever made. You have impeccable taste in movies,sir. "The Last of Us Part 2" is an incredible technical achievement, there's no doubt about that.

@LN78 you seem to have great taste yourself buddy 👊

@colonelkilgore Should've gathered you're an "Apocalypse Now" fan from your username. I too love the smell of napalm in the morning.

@LN78 🍻

My two cents on The Last of Us Part II is that there are two problems with it, neither of which ruined the game for me, and neither of which would have stopped me saying it's an easy 10 and one of PlayStations best ever games.

Problem the first is that it's too long. The whole last section is too much. They should have made it so much shorter with trickery, time skips, whatever. After the emotional rollercoaster at the theatre and then home, I did not need to battle through a bunch of nameless, random jerks just to get to the ending.

Problem the second is that I think they picked the worst possible ending out of all sensible endings from the story trajectory they were on. Realistically, the only endings could be Ellie killing Abby, Abby killing Ellie, both somehow dying, the pair of them teaming up against a common threat, Abby beating Ellie but letting her go, or Ellie beating Abby and letting her go. The ending we got is the least satisfying of those, for my money.

My preferred ending would have been Ellie seeing Abby all thin and broken and what she'd been through and just letting her go without the fight.

But whatevs. Game rocked.

@Th3solution good points! I wonder if, in telling such a simple story in such a complicated way, a bit more was bit off than could be effectively chewed. It just becomes a little unwieldy in certain aspects. It’s fascinating to me how all over the place the response to this game’s narrative has been, even within myself. All of this discussion has actually tempted me to upend my plans and play through this again after Elden Ring. Like you, I thought I was incredibly thorough in both of my play throughs but have still missed some collectibles. That platinum is enticingly close.

I’m very excited to see what they do with the show. From the things I’ve seen and heard around these parts, I think it’s going to be a pretty high quality production.

@Jimmer-jammer I read an article on another site which argued that all games’ narratives are shallow and will never live up to a movie or book because in a game the story is modified to fit around the gameplay, and so the writers have to make concessions to make the gameplay part make sense, and they all inevitably fail. They cite TLoU2 as the pinnacle attempt at closing the gap and yet another failure where the story was a just manipulated to make sense within the game world, thus making it weak and faulty.

A lot of that argument is evidenced by the awful TV and movie adaptations from video game stories. The most awesome video game stories are but mediocre movie plots. When we see the video game storyline put in a passive portrayal like a movie, it typically seems dull and doesn’t really flow and make sense.

Still, I don’t know entirely if I entirely agree that a believable storyline and sensible characters can’t accompany solid gameplay. I do think the two can coexist. The Last of Us TV series will be a good experiment here. With the story and vision of the writers unshackled by having to be interactive, we’ll see if it resonates better.

And yeah, as far as a replay, I won’t do it right now, but I might play it again in the future, just to see the beginning parts with the foreknowledge of the latter parts. I wonder how I’ll respond to Abby’s going ‘scorched-earth’ on Joel’s body the next time I play. As for trophies, I ended at 50%, which is a good number, but I’m only a handful of collectibles away from completing most sets. Probably 90% through most of those.

Ellie killed Alice and didn't seem to care a jot about Shimmer's death. She's dead to me.