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Topic: Team [404 - Team Name Not Found] Deliberation Station

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WiiWareWave

@themcnoisy Why the lower rating for Trails of Cold Steel II? It does everything the first game does, but better. Plus it adds a ton of additional features and gameplay elements and all of which are absolutely brilliant!

Owner of http://www.WiiWareWave.com

PSN ID: Rukiafan7
NNID: Rukiafan7
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PSN: Rukiafan7 | Twitter:

themcnoisy

@TowaHerschel7 No idea Rukky. I will edit that now.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

PS3 Megathread 2019: The Last of Us
Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

ZeD

@themcnoisy
Lego Harry Potter: Years 1–4 - Not Important
Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 - Existing
I am sure these were the 1st LEGO games that had an open world feel to them? They were both excellent games. They were basically the same game split into two games so I do not understand why they are in different categories? I would argue that they are important. For me they are on the same level as Lego Marvel Superheroes.

Also whilst we talk about Lego, what makes the Clone Wars better than the Complete Saga? I tried to play the Clone wars but could not get into it as I had no understanding of the story of the Clone Wars.
The Complete Saga was a complete package that told a story through the original method of slap stick humor (before voices were added to Lego games that is).
If it is that it offered something amazing that makes it better than the Complete Saga, that is fine but if that s the case, Lego Marvel Superheroes needs to be Very Important as it is the best Lego game on the PS3.

Edited on by ZeD

ZeD

PSN: KratosRisesAgain | Twitter:

Th3solution

@ZeD The genesis of the LEGO Star Wars games’ ranks is in comment #243 from @RogerRoger . He breaks it down and has a pretty compelling case for Clone Wars, and Complete Saga. Marvel Superheroes has been bounced around I think in a couple comments and ‘important’ seemed a decent consensus as I interpreted it.
As for Harry Potter, the trend for both games was ‘existing’ according to research since Rog had not played it due to not being a fan of the source material. But then comment #264 came in where @Jaz007 has actually played the first Harry Potter game and deemed it ‘not important’ as he felt it was somewhat derivative apparently. So I went with that but left HP 5-7 existing since Jaz didn’t sound like he had actual experience with the second game so it would be best to leave it to more of a research based consensus. The fact that playing HP1-4 didn’t inspire him enough to play HP 5-7 is telling as to the first game’s lack of influence though. Nevertheless, I’m open to suggestions here on all of the above if you’ve played them.

The inherent problem with these LEGO games is the licensed nature of their narrative and thematic content. I think it’s so hard to be objective about the games themselves. Being either a big fan or not of the movie or series it’s based on undoubtedly taints one’s views and enjoyment of the game. The discussion and comments about the game’s heretofore have tried to be pretty objective though, so I give credence to my fellow users who have first hand experience with the game in question.

So I am fine with re-evaluation of my scores if need be. Maybe a little more detail in response to what Rog and Jaz said earlier about the Star Wars and Harry Potter games? I must say, I am a little confused at especially the HP games having such a wide range of opinion.

(It should be noted that I personally haven’t played any and really have no interest in any LEGO games. Much like the Cabela games or the FIFA games I would be tempted to just call the whole lot ‘existing’ and be done with it because to my uninterested eye they all look the same. I know that’s a biased and unfair opinion though so I defer to wiser counsel from the group)

Edited on by Th3solution

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

ZeD

@Th3solution
I find it hard to believe that the Clone Wars is rated higher than the Marvel Superheroes one. It just seems so crazy! Personally I would swap the around.
As for the Harry Potter games, they stuck to the source material very well, had a funny script and some interesting gameplay elements that helped evolve the puzzles. The second game was slightly better than the 1st as it felt like they really fine tuned the engine. It is the same for The Lord of The Rings one. Again, not important feels harsh but it did come out when maybe eveyone was sick of the 'old' Lego formula (which was changed hugely with the release of Marvel SuperHeroes)

For some reference (Meta critic);
Lego Harry 1- 4 / 80
Lego Harry 5-7 / 76
Lego Marvel Superhero / 82
Lego Star Wars Clone War / 76

If you just used those scores as research, the placements will be very different. That is all I am bringing up. And if you compare the meta critic scores for the Lego Batman games, they line up perfectly to your placements

ZeD

PSN: KratosRisesAgain | Twitter:

RogerRoger

@ZeD This'll be a quick and dirty reply as I'm on the road, so apologies if I come across a little brusque, but I wanted to put some of the last two pages of this into context.

The critic scores are a good starting point with the LEGO games but @themcnoisy made an excellent point before we started, namely that the source material for each (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Batman, etc.) is highly subjective and plays a huge role in whether you'd enjoy each LEGO game or not. When you actually read each "professional" critic's review, most of them are a referendum on the source material; praise for Indiana Jones was high because everybody loves Indy, yet the gameplay itself was copy-paste from the previous two Star Wars games and the first Batman game. It didn't innovate at all, so I kinda ignored the critical reception because it's very obviously biased.

With respect, you yourself said that you didn't get into the LEGO Clone Wars game because you "had no understanding of the story" which kinda proves this point. Its gameplay, meanwhile, was incredibly diverse and innovative. The hub wasn't just a big sandbox, it was a layered, surprising environment with a point. Levels weren't just "run, jump and break things" but rather a varied mix of battlefield strategy, space combat and traditional platforming with picture-in-picture multi-location puzzles. It fundamentally changed the LEGO formula for the better in every single way. It doesn't matter that I like The Clone Wars as much as I do; the game itself is simply brilliant.

The criteria we're using in this group effort considers personal opinion, and rightly so, but after things like innovation, technical achievement and whatnot, and that's what I used to analyse each game. If it were up to me, all Star Wars, Indiana Jones and Batman games would be "Very Important" but I simply can't push that when you look at the gameplay and it's all (usually) identical.

The first open world LEGO game was LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes, which contributed to my pushing for a higher ranking; similarly, that's why I went lower for LEGO Marvel Superheroes, as whilst it has a very impressive open world, the only difference between it and LEGO Batman 2 is that you skydive into it, rather than drive out of the Batcave. Both of those games are quite glitchy on PS3, too, with frequent pop-in, low framerate in the hubs, freezes and other common LEGO game issues, whereas LEGO Clone Wars is a fluid, stable and often gorgeous experience from beginning to end. I'm no Marvel fan but played LEGO Marvel Superheroes in co-op alongside a huge Marvel fan and had a blast because the game was solid, but it rarely innovated, which is why I put it in "Existing" and am happy for others to bring that ranking higher with their own support.

Sorry again if this is poorly-explained and / or rushed. I'll be home tomorrow afternoon and would be happy to answer any other questions you might have then.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

RogerRoger

@Th3solution Also a quick one, but thanks for tagging me in and for your comments above; I agree with your overview, I think it's the only way you can really rank all the LEGO games. It's stunning how many supposedly impartial and professional reviews out there just descend into "but I don't like [insert specific franchise here] so this game sucks" or vice versa, or how many reference other LEGO games when reviewing one and change their tune over time. True impartiality is so difficult and I've probably screwed it up in a couple of my own placements, but I'd hope the "Pointless" rankings for things like LEGO Jurassic World and LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens show that I've tried really hard, at least!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Th3solution

@ZeD Thanks for your input. The Metacritic scores are helpful when lacking hands on experience and I would likely be inclined to just go along with those scores in a vacuum as well, but for the fact that we do have some real life hands on Push Square user experience that we take into account.
For example, you just said HP 5-7 was “slightly better” as they seemed to “really fine tune the engine”, yet Metacritic scores it lower than its predecessor (albeit only slightly). Anyway, the point is I’d be inclined to put some significant stock into your personal opinion and experience over just the scores because you have a better global view of what we are shooting for, plus the advantage of several years of gaming evolution to look back and really assess a game’s significance, as opposed to journalist reviews done in the heat of a release window at the time. But definitely, I see your point and I do think Metacritic scores are a useful piece in helping to assess game quality.
Thanks to @RogerRoger for the clarification, which makes sense. I’m wondering if @Jaz007 has some input in particularly on the Harry Potter game. Also @Frigate did at least watch his spouse play them so maybe he can shed further light. Also @themcnoisy has some first hand experience too. Any additional thoughts?

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

ZeD

@RogerRoger for me I think the issue with the clones wars was that it was the last (I think) with no voices and if you do not know who characters are or a plot, then it fails at telling a story. However, I could say the same about Harry Potter & LotR. These are two franchises I adour and the the stories were told very well through the medium of Lego. The biggest difference was that it has a voice track and If you were not a fan though, you could still enjoy them as they told a story but I doubt you would appreciate it as much as a fan. Much like how I did not understand clone wars.
It does seem like you have done a lot of work on these Lego games and I can see why it is difficult. For example, Lego Jurassic World was a good, entertaining game but it was not needed. It was just another annual Lego release, just like The Force Unleashed & the recent Lego Incredibles.

ZeD

PSN: KratosRisesAgain | Twitter:

themcnoisy

@ZeD I loved Lego Marvel I platted it this gen and 1000g it last gen. Its important to me! As for the criteria I couldn't rate it as very important as it falls down as technically its not great.

I haven't played Clone Wars but will give it a butchers in the future with @RogerRoger having the exp. But I trust his word and he hasn't let us down yet.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

PS3 Megathread 2019: The Last of Us
Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

Jaz007

@Th3solution I played a few hours of HP 1-4. I like all of the properties the LEGO games are based off of just fine. I’ve seen all the movies all of them are based on and enjoyed all of them. I wouldn’t factor that in to my view of them. The gameplay is just the same thing as it was. Magic isn’t even really new beyond the force. Broomsticks are all that was really new. It’s a LEGO game like any other. Why we needed another LEGO game is the question. We were getting 3 a year at least for some of these years. They make COD, AC, and FIFA look sparing with their releases. How quick would those be not important or pointless if we had 3 of them in a year? And I loved the LEGO games at first, I just think the formula ran out and LEGO games need to separate themselves from that format. Go back to LEGO Island or something.

Jaz007

themcnoisy

@Jaz007 I both agree and disagree with that point. Traveller's Tales need to release a single game every year and put all their effort into one boss release. Its too self saturated which I agree with. But I still think the main idea and gameplay is adequate.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

PS3 Megathread 2019: The Last of Us
Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

themcnoisy

I will compile the results tomorrow. @Jaz007 I hope you are alright man, not like you to just leave the thread hanging so I'm hoping nothing bad has happened.

@Th3solution Would you like to do the honours mate and lock the results in? No rush mate I will load them in tomorrow night.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

PS3 Megathread 2019: The Last of Us
Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

Th3solution

@themcnoisy Let me see what I can do.
This will be my own interpretation of Jaz’s tally.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Jaz007

Just Dance 2015 –EXISTING
Just Dance 2016 – NOT IMPORTANT
Just Dance 2017 – NOT IMPORTANT
Just Dance 2018 – NOT IMPORTANT
Kung Fu Rider – POINTLESS
L.A. Noire – Important 1 2 2 1 2 IMPORTANT
Lair – IMPORTANT
Last Rebellion – Pointless 1 1 1 1 existing 1 POINTELESS
Legendary – pointless 1 not 1 1 1 existing 1 NOT IMPORTANT
Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole - NOT IMPORANT
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel – VERY IMPORTANT
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 2 – VERY IMPORTANT
The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon – EXISTING
Legends of War: Patton – NOT IMPORTANT
Lego Batman: The Videogame – EXISTING
Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes – IMPORTANT
Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham – NOT IMPORTANT
LEGO Dimensions Starter Pack – EXISTING
Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4 – EXISTING
Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 – EXISTING
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures- EXISTING
Lego Indiana Jones 2: The Adventure Continues – POINTLESS
LEGO Jurassic World – POINTLESS
The LEGO Movie Videogame – NOT IMPORTANT
LEGO Lord Of The Rings – NOT IMPORTANT
LEGO Marvel's Avengers – NOT IMPORTANT
Lego Marvel Super Heroes – IMPORTANT
Lego Pirates of the Caribbean: The Video Game – NOT IMPORTANT
Lego Rock Band – NOT IMPORTANT
Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga - EXISTING
Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens – POINTLESS
Lego Star Wars III: The Clone Wars – VERY IMPORTANT

Jaz007

Jaz007

Just Dance 2015 – Existing
Just Dance 2016 - Not Important
Just Dance 2017 - Not Important
Just Dance 2018 - Not Important
Kung Fu Rider – Pointless
L.A. Noire - Important
Lair – (played) Important
Last Rebellion - Pointless
Legendary - pointless
Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole - Not Important
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel - Very Important
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 2 - Very Important
The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon – not important
Legends of War: Patton - Not Important
Lego Batman: The Videogame – (played) Existing
Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes – not important
Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham - Not Important
LEGO Dimensions Starter Pack – not important
Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4 – not important
Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 – not important
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures- not important
Lego Indiana Jones 2: The Adventure Continues - Pointless
LEGO Jurassic World - Pointless
The LEGO Movie Videogame - Not Important
LEGO Lord Of The Rings - Not Important
LEGO Marvel's Avengers – not important
Lego Marvel Super Heroes - abstain
Lego Pirates of the Caribbean: The Video Game - Not Important
Lego Rock Band - Pointless
Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga - (played) Existing
Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Pointless
Lego Star Wars III: The Clone Wars - abstain

Jaz007

RogerRoger

@Jaz007 @Th3solution
@Frigate @themcnoisy @TowaHerschel7

Having just seen all my email notifications, I came rushing in here to try and help, only to see that we pulled through in the end after all.

And that's what makes us a team, so please don't shake things up too much!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Th3solution

MGS game’s .... all Very Important. ‘Nuff said.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Jaz007

Here are the games team.

@Jaz007 @themcnoisy @Th3solution @RogerRoger @Frigate @TowaHerschel7
Madden NFL 15 EA Tiburon
Madden NFL 16 EA Tiburon
Madden NFL 17 EA Tiburon
Madden NFL 25 EA Tiburon
Major League Baseball 2K11 Visual Concepts
Major League Baseball 2K12 Visual Concepts
Major League Baseball 2K13 Visual Concepts
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance PlatinumGames
Metal Gear Solid HD Collection Kojima Productions
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots Kojima Productions
Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes Kojima Productions
Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Kojima Productions
Metro: Last Light 4A Games
Michael Jackson: The Experience Ubisoft Montreal
Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor Monolith Productions
Midnight Club: Los Angeles Rockstar San Diego
Midway Arcade Origins Backbone Entertainment
Mindjack feelplus
Minecraft: PlayStation 3 Edition 4j Studios
Minecraft: Story Mode Telltale Games
Mini Ninjas IO Interactive
Mirror's Edge EA Digital Illusions CE
MLB 07: The Show SCE San Diego Studio
MLB 08: The Show SCE San Diego Studio
MLB 09: The Show SCE San Diego Studio
MLB 10: The Show SCE San Diego Studio
MLB 11: The Show SCE San Diego Studio

Jaz007

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