Topic: Nintendo Switch --OT--

@BLP_Software Exactly, that's how it felt to me once I saw the Switch. I mean nothing against the Wii U it was a great piece of hardware it's just a shame no one would support it but once the Switch was revealed it was pretty clear that the idea for Switch was born with the Wii U.

@Tasuki I have to disagree. While off-tv play was one of the gimmicks the Wii U was known for, Nintendo was heavily promoting the ways its GamePad would enhance traditional TV gaming. It's pretty clear to me that Nintendo always intended to be the Wii U to be a home console, as opposed to a gimped Switch. They just didn't know what to do with the GamePad half the time.

Off-TV play was one of the more popular features of the Wii U, and Nintendo was finding that they couldn't support two platforms at once anymore, so the Switch concept really was the only card they had left if they didn't want to abandon home console game development altogether. Thankfully, the concept appears to have resonated with other people as much as it did with me.

@Ralizah Its resonated perhaps a little too well.

Trolls everywhere, and patent lawsuits - A sign of success. I mean Nintendo will be ragged on for all time as @Tasuki said because cmon, that's how it works in this industry, and I don't know what it will take to change that perception, if at all.

I try not to look at the Wii U as a proto-Switch and more of its own thing. It was most definitely a first whack at the concept in great earnest, and that "Free from the TV" mentality though.

@BLP_Software I love that the system succeeded even though so many so-called "hardcore gamers" were prepared to write it off. And yet, unlike the Wii, I feel like this isn't a system that will alienate core gamers: if anything, it seems like a lot of people are gradually being convinced of the useful of hardware versatility when they actually get a chance to use it. A lot of people still don't seem to be able to grok the hybrid concept, though. Have you noticed? They are so used to the handheld/console divide that they're struggling to make sense of a system that is simultaneously both and neither.

@Ralizah Humanity is always going to want to put things into neat little boxes, but at the same time, don't want any new boxes to use.

But the people unable to grasp will never understand without first being willing. You don't come away accepting if you approach solely with your mind made up. Hell, even I was feeling down on the system pre-launch!

@Ralizah Personally, I think the Switch is a console that should appeal to core gamers the most. It offers flexibility and innovation but can comfortably sit alongside other platforms. I know several PC and Sony/MS owners who have got the Switch as well. I know lots don't but I think real gamers don't really care about platforms other than what they offer to them and their tastes.

@Rudy_Manchego I don't know that the Switch is necessarily biggest appeal is to 'Core' gamers. That's not to say that core gamers won't find it appealing but the largest audience is more likely to come from the more casual gamer. I think it has that 'broad' appeal that the Wii had and the same appeal to those people that jumped into the Pokemon Go - many of those would not consider themselves gamers but saw the Wii Sports and Fitness as something that could be played by people who wouldn't otherwise turn to a console. The Wii for example was found in Old Peoples homes to encourage them to play 'sports' or do exercise - not places you would have seen a PS3/XB360.

Again, I am not saying it doesn't appeal to core gamers but I can see the majority of its owners being from the more casual gaming market and I do agree that it can comfortably sit alongside other gaming device. It also though appeals to those who may not have the time to sit and play a PS4/XB1/PC because they are on the go a lot and this gives them the opportunity to game in the times they are travelling or want/have a quick break. I really do think that the majority will be those people that probably don't have an alternative gaming device and the more 'casual' gamer.

I do agree that 'real' gamers don't really care who makes that 'block' of plastic and electronics - its just a 'device' that enables then to access the games they want to play. Each has its own unique games and goals and can offer 'something' different. I do think that MS are more 'generic' in that the games are not that different from games that can be found on the other systems (especially on XB1) - not to say that they are 'bad' but you can replace Forza with PC or GT, Halo is just another FPS and there are lots of alternatives, Gears is a great 3rd Person Shooter... I know that Halo and Gears can be 'difficult' to find a direct substitute but its not like you can't find any. Sony's Exclusive games are more unique and of course they have a big 'Japanese' library too. There is of course a differing attitude to the past between these two with MS seemingly more keen to preserve the history of games where as Sony are more interested in the present and what technology can do. By that I mean that MS are more keen to keep games alive and as they were where as Sony will be more keen to bring those games forward and updated to be more 'present day'. Nintendo are doing what Nintendo have always done.

I have never bought a console 'just' because its a Playstation or Xbox, whether its a Nintendo or Sega but bought these because of the games. I know that owning both an Xbox ans PS that the majority of games will be 'common' to both and that I 'could' just own 1 and over the life of that console, miss out on perhaps 10-20 games that I would want to play because the majority of games I buy are common to both. However, I couldn't pick one or the other as both have Pro's and Con's and as a 'gamer' I wouldn't be happy to miss out on the exclusives and 'benefits' that each offers.

In an ideal world, I would want a console that can play 'every' game - whether its from Sony, MS or Nintendo. Pretty much like buying a Bluray player that can play discs from Universal, Paramount etc. If Sony, MS and Nintendo each made their 'own' console (like LG, Samsung etc make their own Bluray players), I would buy the one that delivered the best gaming performance across all (or at least the majority) of games - not the one that has a 'specific' brand on it just because of that name. I have no 'brand' loyalty at all and if that 'situation' ever did arise, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the 'best' if it was made by a brand like HP, Dell, Samsung, Apple etc - the priority will be how it handles games.

For me, Nintendo's Switch has minimal appeal. I don't game on the go so that feature doesn't interest me at all. I wouldn't mind playing Zelda but I am not willing to spend on buying both the console and game - and probably the Pro controller too (I wasn't prepared to spend on the Vita for Uncharted, Killzone and Resistance either so its not unusual for me) just to play that. Mario Kart and Mario Odyssey don't appeal that much to me and I have much better consoles to play games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Skyrim and Fifa (if Fifa actually appealed) so unless the Switch has a big enough library of games I want to play to justify spending that much, I will remain without.

I still think its incredible what Nintendo has achieved - especially when you see the size of its motherboard but it doesn't have enough of a reason for me to buy. I still think though that its appeal is much broader than Sony and MS consoles and its that broad appeal that makes me think that the Switches biggest audience will be among the more 'casual' but that doesn't mean to say that it has no or even limited appeal to 'core' gamers - just that the size of the casual market is so much larger in number and therefore will be the bigger audience.

@BAMozzy Obviously the casual sector is the biggest market - I mean, we see that in the sales chart. It isn't people like us on Push Square buying Fifa and GTA V every single week so if it sparks interest there, that will be the biggest demographic. I'd gently disagree with you a little on the point about the Switch and core gamers. Most friends and work colleagues are PC master race types who are often indignant about having to play consoles for exclusives but I know quite a few who like the idea of the Switch more than say, getting another console like PS4 or XB1 because it offers something different.

You are absolutely right that the Wii sold bucket loads and the majority of purchasers were either, I suppose, casuals or those who don't normally game. In my opinion, the Wii was held in contempt by significant numbers in the core gaming community who thought a lot of games on the console were just faddish or not optimal. If they did own the console, they were doing it for the Wii sports experience, not as a core gaming console. I think very few remember it as their favourite console and motion controls were shunned by a lot of gamers. I mean, the Wii was given away as a gift at the Carphone Warehouse when my wife got a phone upgrade - that's how I got mine.

The Wii U on the other hand, never really made it past the Nintendo fanbase who supported the console. It didn't really appeal to a lot of core gamers or a mass audience.

All anecdotal of course but I don't see that with the Switch. It feels like a return to pre-Wii era Nintendo in a lot of ways and the form factor makes sense. As said, I know several PC gamers who look down their nose at consoles who have bought a Switch or want to get one because they like the idea of playing games on the move or just dropping it in the dock when they want to have a bash on MK or something. It could also be a little bit of nostalgia, I think Nintendo have done very well over the last year to remind people they exist and that people have a soft spot for them and their games.

I personally think, and I could be totally wrong, that a lot of gamers are going to double dip and get this as a complimentary system to their PC, XB, PS4 etc. in a way they didnt with the Wii U or even, say, the 3DS. I also think you are right about the casual market - I think this has the opportunity to sell big and appeal in the same way the Wii did (probably not those numbers). My point is that I could see this hitting both demographics.

@Rudy_Manchego Anecdotal evidence too, but I see a lot more ''gamers'' interested in the Switch than casual gamers. One of my friends, and although he isn't the ''no 60fps/no 4K, no buy'' type of guy, he's willing to spend a few thousands on a computer rig, and he got the Switch before I did. It's different from the Wii. Especially since it's more of a handheld, it feels a lot more like a personal system than a ''family'' system. So I don't expect a lot of clueless moms and dads buying the Switch for their family like they did with the Wii.

@Octane Yeah, that is my experience too - one of my work colleagues has just spent like £700 or something on a graphics card but he also bought a Switch at launch because he likes Zelda and sitting with his GF on the couch playing.

I think it will crossover into the causal market but it will not be like the Wii. I still think that was lightening in a bottle - it was relatively cheap and affordable and got everyone in the room involved. I think most Wii's ended up gathering dust once the hype was over.

I can see the Switch being more popular with people who like to game but can't always use the TV or want to sit in bed and play some fun games. I think the whole MP thing is cool but I don't see that as the Switch's strength. I can see Mom and Dads buying the Switch to shut kids up or keep them in the room rather than shut in their room. Time will tell though, I have no data to back up that one!

I do think that the 'core' gamers are more likely to view this as a 'Handheld' and a big step up from any other Handheld on the market - something that can feed their passion when access to a TV/monitor may not be possible. Its that 'handheld' option though that is the biggest draw - mainly because if they want or have the opportunity to play Fifa/Skyrim etc on a 'big' screen, then they are more likely to play on the PS4/XB1/PC. That's not to say they might still play on a 'big screen' sometimes but its that portable aspect that appeals as you can't exactly play the others when TV/Monitor access is difficult or impossible. I can see parents buying the Switch because its versatile - a device the kids can play in the car or if their parents want to watch TV. Essentially buying it because its 'better' than the 3DS/Vita.

But I still see it as having a greater appeal to the casual/non-gamer - much like the Wii did. Maybe not to some sectors - like the 'elderly' or fitness fans who liked the appeal of Wii sports to compliment their lifestyle and/or improve their mobility. I think the Wii also had some appeal to core gamers - the unique motion control adding something to games like Monkey Ball as well as Mario Kart. Its not as if many gamers didn't grow up with Mario and Sonic and the Wii still had some great nostalgic games. I do feel though that when Sony and MS came out with their Motion based peripherals, that heralded the 'end' of the Wii and its 'unique' offerings. The motion based games though struggled to be anything more than 'casual/party/fitness' and showed its limitations too.

The WiiU didn't have that 'broad appeal' to non-gamers and the more casual market. I wouldn't be surprised if its biggest users were gamers that also owned another console. Because it wasn't unique and lacked power, the 3rd party games that were ported, were generally 'older' games that people had played on their other devices. Without having something 'uniquely different' - like the WiiU's motion or the Switches portability, it didn't give the owners much reason to double dip with these games which in turn put publishers off from porting other games only for those to not sell particularly well to justify the cost. This in turn also affected sales because without that support, WiiU owners had very few 'releases' and potential WiiU buyers wouldn't invest in a console that had 'few releases'.

The Switch is offering something 'unique' like the WiiU did at launch too. Gamers are more likely to 'double dip' with games like Skyrim, Wolfenstein etc because of the fact they can play these on the go. I can still see this having a bigger appeal to the 'non-gamers' and 'casuals' - the same demographic that jumped into the pokemon go hype for example and I think that will make up the majority of sales long term. I do think the Switch has a bigger appeal to 'core' gamers too because it offers them that opportunity to feed their passion away from a TV/Monitor, that 'unique' feature only the Switch can offer. As I said, I can see those gamers double dipping on games too because they can enjoy those games when out and about.

Point is, I am NOT denying that the Switch has 'appeal' to core gamers but the fact it has more appeal to the casuals and people that may not have time/opportunity to game at a fixed place often enough to justify the traditional 'console/PC' - the ones that may only game on a Mobile or Tablet as that fits in more with their lifestyle/schedule. I am certain that their are many more people that would fall into these categories and why I think they will make up the majority of Switch sales. Not every 'gamer' - whether PC, PS4 or XB1 want or can have multiple devices and I think these will almost certainly opt to stick with their current' device than trade in or buy a Switch. The fact it offers versatility in some areas will help it sell to some people, but its short comings will also prevent it from selling to others. Some families may still opt to buy the Sony or MS device because it offers a more wider array of media options - like a Bluray player for example and therefore be more 'beneficial' to more people in that household.

Its swings and roundabouts really and we are still in the honeymoon phase. We will just have to see how things develop and where it ends up in 2-3 yrs time. I still think it will have a larger 'casual' audience than those 'core' gamers - much that I hate to use those terms as they are meaningless in reality - I just don't know how better to put it.

I can see why 'core' gamers and why we know many that are 'double dipping' because that's the circles we move in. We may not know how many people who wouldn't consider themselves as 'core' gamers are interested in or have bought the Switch. These people are unlikely to be on forums, on our console friends lists etc so it maybe skewing our perspective too...

@BLP_Software I think you're looking at things outside of their context really.

The Wii U was a failure sales wise. Not many of its games will be remembered, because to be quite frank, not many people bought the games.

That's not different from the fact that not a lot of people played Shenmue, because not a lot of people owned a Dreamcast. That's how things go.

How people remember the games they played on the Wii U is something different altogether. When I played Mario 3D World today I had a great time and I didn't think for one second about the Wii U sales or anything. You can look at those two things (enjoying the games/reviewing the console as a whole) independently from each other.

If you have trouble separating your own memories from the general reception of a console, then that is something you're doing to yourself. Most people don't worry about it too much.

Like what you like, don't let yourself be influenced by what other people think. I have enjoyed games that received bad grades and you should be able to enjoy a console, even if you are the only one playing on it.

@BLP_Software The point I was making wasn't necessarily regarding whether or not we will come to see it as a success or not. A console is more than just sales alone in my opinion and also reliant on its library and support. I really can't say the the Switch is a 'success' or not at this stage, can't say that it will continue to be well supported from more than just 'Nintendo' or what the state of play will be in 2-3yrs time.

If Sony for example were to release a PS5 in Q4 2018 - not because the PS4/Pro are not selling well but because they are in a position to build a console better suited to the 4k HDR era, even if they haven't sold more than the PS3 or had as long a life-cycle there is no way that you can consider the PS4 to have been a failure. The same applies to Switch. There is no disputing that its had a successful launch and seems to be well supported at the moment but that doesn't mean it can sustain that momentum. I, again am not saying it can't maintain that either but you can't assess it after just a few months. You don't read the first Chapter of a book and immediately determine it to be the best work of literature. You don't watch act 1 of a movie or episode 1 of a series and award it an Oscar/Bafta. You don't expect a reviewer to base they entire score on playing the first 'half hour' or so of a game and in a similar way, I am not prepared to pass definitive judgement on the Switch.

Like I said, its certainly got off to a good start and it looks like its getting 'more' support than many expected it to. The fact we are seeing games like Doom and Wolfenstein 2 coming to it is more than many expected. I bet most thought it would get mostly last gen era games and maybe a few indie/arcade games at most. Whether or not its still getting the same AAA games that are on PS4/Xbox in 2-3yrs, we will have to see. It obviously can't cope with some games and/or features - like no map editor in Doom and only 30fps, not getting games like CoD or SW:BF so we don't know where it will be in 2-3yrs time, whether Devs are still prepared or able to port games to Switch or whether it will be similar to the WiiU in that 3rd party support disappears.

In 2-3yrs time, maybe the core gamers who now have Xbox 'X'/PS5's, much better PC's and 4k HDR TV's and that 'power' gap, with Mobiles and/or Tablets possibly also offering superior games/performance, whether the Switch still has the popularity, still selling units etc or gathering dust in peoples homes and those that loved it in the first few months, becoming disappointed with the support, the games and having a very different opinion.

Realistically you cannot look at a console and pass a definitive judgement on it in the first six months. You can state its been successful to date or not but there is still a long way to go and therefore we will have to wait and see. If you assessed the PS3 after its first 6months, you would have written it off but we all know how successful that console ended up being. We can't write off PSVR (or VR in general) either because Sony has only sold ~1.5m in nearly a year. Some may start slow and then gain momentum whilst others may start well but fade very fast so its not applicable to assess soething that's expected to have a 4/5yr+ life cycle after just a few months.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT saying that the Switch will or even could be considered a flop in 2-3yrs time. The only thing I was insinuating is that its far too early to assess its market demographic and in 2-3yrs time, it may well be easier to assess if its primary audience is the casual/non-gamer or whether its predominantly still appealing to gamers - assuming its still continues to be popular of course.

In terms of the games that we'll be getting/are currently getting, the Switch honestly feels a lot like the GameCube to me. Super great first party games that aren't really casual for the most part, and some pretty solid third party support so far. All it needs is an Animal Crossing and a proper Paper Mario in the vein of The Thousand Year Door, and it'll undoubtedly be my favorite Nintendo console of all time in terms of the library. (It probably will be once Odyssey comes out anyway, though)

It's already my favorite when it comes to the hardware, though. Big fan of the hybrid idea. I hope they continue with it, because it just works so well. Plus, then the "No 4K/1080p and 60 FPS, no buy" crowd will finally shut up. Although by then they'll probably have become the "No 16K and no 600 FPS, no buy" crowd.

Posted this on NL but I'll put it here too.

My opinion on the Switch is flopping around like a fish out of water.

On one hand, I like the idea on paper. On the other, I don't. The openness of the system is a great boon, but it also hampers the experience through limiting the hardware out of necessity.

This isn't a system I can say if you only want portable or home gaming, buy it, because you buy two halves and only care about one. This is a system that only really works if you can use and appreciate both.
When I was at university and travelling a lot, I could do that. It fit in. Now, I barely leave the house, so why do I have it? It barely gets used.

Then we have the games. Looking back, it's a range of meh to decent titles.

Breath of the Wild is a game I can comfortably say was "Okay", but I don't ever really want to play it again. That's a literal one and done title. ARMS was fun, but nothing more than a distraction. Mario + Rabbids has boiled down to be quite boring. Splatoon 2 isn't holding me like the original, and I wish I knew why. A lot of the indie games are one and dones, or buy and regrets.

This is a system I think epitomises....just there. It's a thing. It exists. I'm actually moving back to playing on my PS4 more because I don't have a need for the features of this hardware anymore, and the games on their own lose their luster without that. Without the boon of OMG ITS PORTABLE, something like Breath of the Wild is just...an okay game.

And a lot of the third party games, sure, portability, but outside of that what is the experience? Pay more for a perfectly fine and playable version of a game, but be aware that it's actually not the best experience you could be having on your TV, but its the only experience in your hand.

I just...don't know what to think about this thing. It just exists.

@BLP_Software Totally agree with you on that. I have a Switch but honestly I play the PS4 alot more. Most of the games that are coming out on it I either have played already or will get on my PS4 where I have the harddrive space and don't have to buy an SD card as well.

I think it's great for Nintendo fans especially if they don't own a PS4 or Xbox One and can now play some of these games like Doom and LA Noire for example. Unless you are a die hard Nintendo exclusive fan I don't see a point in owning one if you have the other two systems, of course unless you travel alot.

@Tasuki Agreed. Even the usual first party games which are a reason to pick up any system, just aren't good on this thing.

I'm finding myself repurchasing PS4/Steam games just to be able to play them on the Switch. I'm absolutely in love with the system.

Of course, I'll fully admit it's the versatility of the hardware that drives that love. The exclusives are fantastic, of course, but Nintendo exclusives are almost always fantastic. The hybrid approach just really resonates with me.

At this point, the only reason I don't sell my PS4 (besides not wanting to lose P.T.) is because it's still getting a number of decent exclusives that I won't be able to play anywhere else. Ni no Kuni 2, in particular, looks absolutely fantastic.

@BLP_Software I played Zelda on my Wii U and I didn't get one until a few weeks ago. I loved Splatoon, so it's understandable that 90% of my current gaming is spent on Splatoon 2. And Odyssey comes out next week, but I don't have much to look forward to beyond those two games. I also want a demo for ARMS...

I don't really care about its portability, but I sometimes use it like I used the off-TV play functionality with the Wii U. Still at home, but in bed before I go to sleep for example. I think I will continue to buy most multiplats on PS4 though, where they're often cheaper, released earlier, and don't take up as much storage space relatively speaking.

@Octane Sounds like you DO care about the portability to some extent if you're playing it away from the TV.

I don't take my Switch out of the house most days, but I do take advantage of its portability all the time to play around the house. Occasionally I'll play on a long car ride or during downtime at work, but the main thing for me is not being tethered to a TV.

It's why I currently have no backlog for my Switch and a large-ish backlog for all of my stationary systems: I often have little bits of time that can be used to chip away at games, but not enough continuous free time to just sit and play a game on a TV for hours on end.

Since Switch versions of games can be played anywhere and PS4 games force me to stay in one spot when I want to play them, my PS4 is purely for exclusives at this point.