Topic: Gaming's pet peeves

@Kidfried Oh yes, Everybody’s Gone to the Rapture has a weird autosave that only occurs after a motion control story event. And even then, it takes several seconds after the event to trigger the saving icon, so you have to wait a few seconds before quitting. As beautiful as the game is, the save function is incredibly poorly implemented.
@Jaz007 I agree a combination is the best save system. Autosave right before a big boss fight or major jump or traversal sequence when you might die, and then have manual saves for every other time. I had to use that Bloodborne save copying trick to the cloud in order to be able to do all the endings without playing through the whole game again. The game was so brutal in its relentless insistence that you live with every mistake that you make. Use some blood echoes? —they are gone forever because we save afterward. Choose this story option?— you’re stuck with the consequences because we save immediately afterward. 😂

Here's a big pet peeve. The lack of depreciation for DLC. It makes buying it well after launch very undesirable. Bought the game new for $10? How about $15-20 for some DLC.... DLC needs to go down in price and is one of its biggest problems. It acts like the game is $60 forever. I hate it so much. Even worse is when a GOTY edition costs $30 or $40 and the DLC season pass still costs $40 or $50.

@Th3solution Bethesda, for all its faults, has a great save system. You can make multiple manual saves. And they're actually sorted per character. There is an autosave, which saves everytime you enter or leave a building, or progress within a quest. Also, there are multiple autosaves, in case you want to go back a little further. And there is the quicksave system, which allows for fast manual saves.

Basically... every game should have this!

@Jaz007 Holy smokes, this is exactly what I was thinking yesterday. I can buy Fallout 4 GOTY (all DLC) physical for less than the last DLC I still want.

I spent 60+25 on Fallout 4 already. And I still need to spend 20. While new gamers can buy the GOTY for 19 euro. Feels like being punished for actually supporting the game.

And it's stuff like this that makes me hesitant to buy Spider-Man or the new Tomb Raider before a GOTY is out.

@Kidfried I find most eastern games I've played have a poor save system, where as the majority of western titles are much better. I've just lost about 30 mins of talking to characters, following them really slowly and tutorials in Monster Hunter World, even though it says when you load the game it auto saves. When exactly does the game auto save then? Grrrrr.

@Jaz007 I agree, but DLC and season passes also have a discount in the ps store sales too.

@KratosMD Difficulty levels in JRPG is so stupid. I found Yakuza 0 quite easy (I know it's not a very typical JRPG, but I tend to see it as one anyway), so I played Kiwami on max difficulty level. It doesn't make the game more difficult; they just give enemies more HP and make their attacks stronger.

Basically, it makes the game way worse, as battles can take two to four times as long, without them actually being more difficult. The only thing it's testing is my patience and my ability to button mash for way too long. Instead of not using items at all, I just made sure to have a few healing items on me. Felt like an insult, really.

@KratosMD You've highlighted one of the reasons why I've (mostly) steered clear of JRPGs thusfar in my gaming history. I've been seriously tempted by a few franchises, but I'm very aware that many Japanese games take what the West would call "Hard" or "Very Hard" and call it "Normal". Sometimes I can understand why but, speaking to some of my friends who do play JRPGs, sometimes it would appear as though they either want make the game longer, or make boss battles seem more spectacular.

Historically, in my experience, there are other Japanese games that do this, though; it's not just RPGs. When I think of some of my most challenging gaming moments, I tend to think of things like Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising, We Love Katamari, several Naruto games and parts of Sonic Unleashed. I think the West has only really embraced the idea of higher difficulty levels and more challenging game modes in recent years, thanks to a combination of trophy / achievement integration (everybody wants the trophy with the 0.1% stat because it shows how elite you are) and the popularity of Soulsborne games.

Games with ridiculous difficulty spikes or steep learning curves are something I'd personally have on this list anyway; I've only ever given up on three games (all handhelds; one Japanese, two Western) because they suddenly became impossible for me to complete halfway through. I'm not amazing at games, but I'm not terrible either, and I genuinely couldn't see how anybody could progress.

@RogerRoger Question on difficulty: do you think all games should be able to be completed by anyone, regardless of skill?

@Kidfried Short answer, yes.

But it's a tricky yes. I respect that sometimes, the artistic vision behind a game is for it to be played / experienced a certain way, and there is merit in making certain things feel "earned" by challenge, but gaming is well underway to becoming an art form on the same level as books and film, and no book I know of shuts itself halfway through if the reader isn't turning the pages quickly enough.

I'd say it therefore depends on the type of game. Things like Uncharted, for example, are there to tell a big cheesy story and if you're there to enjoy it on that level, there's no point playing it on Crushing. I can't speak for all games ever made, but I'm sure there are some JRPGs (to use the example) that started out as "hey, I've got an idea for a story I'd like to tell" and evolved from there; if they suddenly become too difficult to play halfway through, then it defeats the point of telling the story, because nobody's ever gonna see the end.

There are games, however, that exist to be played and have bare-bones story (or no story at all) surrounding a gameplay concept or particular challenge. Of course, with that sentence, I could also be describing smartphone games, so it becomes difficult to quantify, but that's okay because there are many gamers (myself included) who sometimes just wanna push buttons and make the thing go forward, for whatever reason, be it challenge or simply because they like the music.

I'd personally say that, if your game features a story arc beyond "you must go here to win" and characters you're supposed to care for (like many JRPGs, for example), locking the resolution to the narrative behind a high skill wall can be unfair to some. With the invention of adjustable difficulty levels in games, nobody has an excuse for leaving out an "Easy" mode in those kinds of games. Slap any kinds of restrictions you want on it (some games don't award trophies for playing on lower difficulty levels, for example) but for goodness sake, include it.

Because it won't just benefit people who simply aren't good at playing games, but also people who can't be good because of physical or other disabilities, like my partner.

@RogerRoger Your comparison with books or paintings is not completely true in my opinion. Books require you to know the language it was written in, and also expect you to have a background on its subject matter.

Also, paintings often don't tell you what they are about. You need a certain context to understand those.

(It will be difficult for people that are color blind to enjoy many expressionistic art works.)

That being said, personally I oppose any reasoning in which art and video games are compared and someone states "Other art forms (not) require you to x." It's that kind of reasoning that for instance Roger Ebert used to discredit games as art form: "Games aren't art because you can not win at art." Personally I think there's a reason we call games "games" and not "literature" or "movies", exactly the reason why it is different.

Also, games as art, I can understand artists not wanting to make compromises on their vision. On the other hand I can totally see the point that everyone should be able to enjoy games. It's a difficult subject is what it is. I am blessed to be rather good at games for sure (not noteworthy good or anything).

Difficulty levels in an RPG are a good idea to me. I'm currently playing Dragon Quest XI and it is by far the easiest Dragon Quest game I've played. I would like to employ more strategy in battles, but there is no need. I've not excessively grinded, either. There are battle modifiers, but I missed this at the beginning as they can only be activated when you start a new game and it was not made it obvious they were there. I think in this case it would have been nice if the game had a higher difficulty. Persona 5 was about right I think, although easier than 3 and 4. The QoL adjustments and additional of new skills may have contributed to that.

Turn-based RPGs are one of the few genres I'm actually good at, so difficulty levels have actually helped me a lot in other genres. I struggled with Nier Automata on normal, because owing to my arthritic fingers I couldn't repeatedly dodge without hurting myself. I therefore turned it down to easy (which can be done at any time) and equipped auto dodge. I was then able to enjoy the game. I played God of War on easy too. Difficulty levels make a game more accessible or more difficult depending on what the player wants.

@KratosMD It's true that a lot of Japanese RPGs are misleading with their difficulty. Normal is often harder than a lot of people would assume. Shin Megami Tensei in general is a series traditionally known for its punishing difficulty - they're definitely more difficult than many other games in the genre. However, if there weren't difficulty levels in wouldn't you just be stuck if "normal" was what the game's difficulty is based on? Would you say that having the option to play on a lower difficulty level is a good thing for players who want to focus more on the story? There's a problem in that an awful lot of games do not allow you to change the difficulty mid way through, so I can certainly understand your frustration at losing progress.

Rain/dust/dirt on the 'camera' in 3rd-person games. No, I'm supposed to 'be' the character, not following them around with a camera... I shouldn't be seeing this stuff build up on glass that shouldn't be there.

@Kidfried I respect your perspective, but must politely disagree with some of your counterpoints. You can teach or explain to somebody the context required to understand a book or film, and an artist can talk about the meaning behind their painting, but you can't just turn around to bad gamers and say "press the button faster" in the same way. No amount of learning can help you overcome the limitations of RSI or, in my partner's case, MS.

Okay, there's the potential language barrier with literature, I'll give you that one, but major works are often translated into multiple languages anyway (same for games, which is why we're able to talk about JRPGs, as I'm pretty sure you and I aren't Japanese). I've also seen some famous artworks be colour-adjusted for colour-blind folks before, too.

My argument might sound like I'm against comparing games to other art forms, but I'm really not. I genuinely do see them as a legitimate form of expression. What I'm arguing for is a level playing field and accessibility options for all, on all games, and needless difficulty spikes or uncommon difficulty parameters are unnecessary barriers to that. I simply can't see a reason why selectable difficulty modes aren't programmed into every game that has other compelling elements beyond the gameplay itself (such as story, characters, level design, music, etc.) and will totally criticise games that fail to include them, even if I'm perfectly capable of getting through to the credits.

But, as you say, it's a difficult subject and I've kinda steered it from a discussion about difficulty levels to accessibility options and the rights of the disabled, so apologies for that and for any of the above that comes across as overly defensive or combative.

@KratosMD Thanks for the tip; knowing the context of this discussion then yeah, I'll probably pick "Easy" whenever I load up a JRPG in future (because there are some I really, really wanna try, including Persona 5 and Final Fantasy XV, given what I've heard from folks here and elsewhere). Like you say, I'm usually a "Normal" player. The only times I've ever played things on "Hard" or above have been for trophies, and I've never enjoyed the experience; it always felt like work, which is not why I play games.

@Paranoimia Good one!

The way you worded that reminds me of a review of Tomorrow Never Dies on PSone, which unfavourably compared the game to GoldenEye on N64 by saying that "in this game, you play as Bond's documentary cameraman".

As somebody who plays mostly third-person action-adventure games, I agree with your comment.

@KratosMD If the games are made in Japan I would hazard a guess and say they are "Japanese normal". I guess it's fair to say thar not every developer has the resources to rebalance gameplay or craft a new difficulty mode tailored to Western expectations, short of renaming existing ones (if it has difficulty levels at all). I will say I've played a lot of Western games that have been too challenging for me on normal, but others are fine. I'm not sure there is a universal level of challenge in western games.

What sort of challenge do you think a turn-based game to be at "normal"? Obviously most lack needing to worry about real time commands so the degree of challenge has to come from the damage enemies deal and the strategy required to counter that. For me personally I wouldn't necessarily expect a cakewalk where I just hit attack and nothing else in every battle (or fast forward like in Persona), but I wouldn't expect to have my arse handed to me every battle either.

@KratosMD Fair points, although I disagree with figuring out enemies elemental weaknesses being a negative, and perhaps even the presence of one-hit kill attacks. Guess that's just personal preference though. Do agree with the SP restoration (I think I mentioned this in the Persona thread), certainly compared to 4 where the Fox was in the lobby of the TV world. I think it was intended for palaces to be completed over multiple days, although the only palace where I did have trouble with SP management and had to do this was the Spaceport. Surprisingly I only got one game over and that was in the first Palace and only because I was careless with the auto attack. Persona games do make it clear when you start a new game that you won't be able to restart battles on certain difficulties. I think that's fair and its for the player to decide.

Xenoblade Chronicles is an interesting example of a game that attempts to modernise the genre in certain areas. However, I did not like how enemy difficulty was structured or find the battle system particularly elegant. You shouldn't have to be at a boss's level to have any real shot at defeating it. I loved the story and exploring the world though.

All this talk of RPGs made me think of something that annoys me but typically I forgot what it was. 😂 If I remember I'll post it.

@Paranoimia Spot on. This is such a 'film' thing to do, but totally doesn't fit the games medium.

@RogerRoger I'll response when I have the time, in a more fitting topic. If you don't feel comfortable discussing it with me, that's also fine of course and we can leave it like this.

@RogerRoger What about something like Bloodborne? The story is cryptic, but still excellent and it’s built around it’s difficulty.

@RogerRoger Oh, and don’t play FFXV on easy. It’s perfectly balanced on normal. I never had a game over screen once while I played. I came close, but it never happened.

@Jaz007 Maybe for you, but i found there was a huge difficulty spike towards the last third of the game playing it on normal. Plus that was another game that didn't let you save for long portions. I played it about 6 months after release so those issues may well have been fixed by now.

@JohnnyShoulder The only notable spike I really remember was at the end when you were in the city before the final fight, but if you didn’t have trouble the enemies there, the final boss would’ve been even easier, because he wasn’t difficulty to start with. I also don’t know anything about not being able to save because I didn’t die and used suspend mode. I don’t remember any difficulty from not being able to switch games though from long save inbetweens.
I played it a It over a year after release.