If you can (because it's incredibly difficult for folks who love music, like your good self), give me a piece of music you think is an example of the best in gaming, please.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger I'm inclined to agree. Even the worst Sonic games tend to have great soundtracks.
If anything, I'd say I dislike more ambient soundtracks. When I think of great gaming music, I think of either exciting stuff like boss themes, fighting jams, level music that shows the personality of it, or beautiful pieces during emotional moments. If you asked me to pick something from almost any horror game, or slow, atmospheric pieces that are barely noticeable, I couldn't.
"We don't get to choose how we start in this life. Real 'greatness' is what you do with the hand you're dealt." -Victor Sullivan "Building the future and keeping the past alive are one and the same thing." -Solid Snake
First of all, after working all day and not having time to check the forums, I pulled up this thread and it just cracked me up. I just love the personalities we have here! 😂
Anyway, I have never played a Sonic game, so can’t speak for its music, but give me Uncharted, Final Fantasy 8, The Last of Us, and NieR Automata for the win!
@JohnnyShoulder Excellent choice. Complements the game perfectly too.
I'm a big fan of the No Man's Sky soundtrack but then again, I am a fan of 65daysofstatic who wrote it. Harry Gregson William's work on the MGS games (but not the original!) is also pretty great.
@RogerRoger sonic has some great music but for me FINAL FANTASY has the best music in games
"I pity you. You just don't get it at all...there's not a thing I don't cherish!"
"Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
@Th3solution Apologies if this feels like I'm singling you out or anything, but I'm curious; can you hum a piece of music from Uncharted that isn't the main menu theme?
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger 🎵 Humm...mmm....taaa....da daaaa... bummmm, bummm, bummm ...🎶
....Oh, wait. That’s the main theme.
Maybe I can’t. 🤔
But it’s a great theme.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution Thanks for trying! I'm just curious as to how people define "great" in terms of music that's designed to accompany another experience, such as a game. I listen exclusively to film, television and game soundtracks (and, as such, could hum a lot of Uncharted music for you, particularly from Drake's Deception) and have been thinking about this a lot recently, particularly after Shadow of the Tomb Raider. That game does indeed have an excellent score that everybody's been rightly raving about... yet I find totally boring to listen to separate from playing the game, and can't remember a single note of it, with the possible exception of one or two very specific moments.
@RogerRoger Yeah, out of curiosity, I pulled up the Uncharted 3 Soundtrack just now (it was the only one I could immediately find on Spotify at the moment) and started listening and I’ll double down on it being a great one. But you and @Kidfried are right — memorable does not necessarily mean good or great. As far as video games (and movies) a good musical soundtrack is one that carries the desired emotional impact and motivates me to continue the game and progress toward the ending. I actually almost never listen to video game music on my non-gaming time. The latest exception was NieR Automata, after discussing the game on that thread lately with @Ralizah , I have been thoroughly enjoying listening to it and feeling the emotions again.
So basically that’s a long winded way of saying that I agree. 😄
And if Sonic has that impact for you, then more power to ya. 😛
Memorable and quality definitely aren't the same thing, but I'll take a memorable soundtrack over a "quality" one anyday as long as it's not "memorable" for the wrong reasons. I'll disagree on Uncharted: the music might be great for driving scenes in the midst of gameplay, but I can't remember a single tune from any of the five Uncharted games I've played. And that lack of resonance with the music emotionally ultimately impacts my emotional connection with the game itself after I'm done playing it.
Which is one big reason that I, in general, prefer Japanese-developed games: the prominence they place on music, and the way music stands out from the experience and thumps its chest instead of quietly fading into the background of a scene. Games like Gears of War, Uncharted, etc. probably have perfectly find soundtracks, but they're like typical movie soundtracks: there for the duration of the experience, and then gone the next day.
Everybody here who has talked to me probably knows by now that I'm a massive fan of Breath of the Wild, but you know what the one aspect of the game that I don't remember perfectly fondly is? The music. The sound design is wonderful and integrative and I'm full of praise for it, but it's still true that something of value was lost when opting for that approach. The only music that really stands out to me is the theme for Hyrule Castle and the brilliant trailer music, both pieces of which are almost entirely absent from the actual game for some reason.
@Ralizah I thought the soundtrack in Breath of the Wild was pretty weak. And that's coming from someone who will take a "quality" soundtrack over a memorable one. But I think Breath of the Wild was neither.
I don't think soundtracks need to be memorable, but I do like them more when they stand out, are unique And that's something I think Japanese developers do better than European/American. Aside from one or two tunes I can't whistle the soundtrack from Earthbound or Super Mario RPG for you, but give me one of those tracks, and they'll immediately take me back to that exact moment in the game. Same for The Last Guardian; which had a very subtle soundtrack, but different enough from so many other games.
For soundtracks I want them to really feel like they were written for this moment alone. And that's what I think is often lacking in Western games, with soundtracks that are great musically, but could have been from other games as well. There are great exceptions too, like No Man's Sky and Assassin Creed: Syndicate. But give me Call of Duty and Battlefield soundtracks (from those I've played) and -aside from the main themes- I won't be able to tell you which is which.
@Kidfried@Ralizah I agree, although I would argue that there are moments when I want the music to be prominent and stand out, and there are moments when I want it to be subtle and deftly woven into the fabric of the experience such that I don’t even recognize that the music is affecting me. Suddenly I’m crying and then realize that a melodious but quiet accompaniment of violins is singing to my emotions while I watch a protagonist suffer or watch his/her loved one die. Most games have moments for both memorable music and moments that benefit from subtlety, at least most story driven games do. Now FIFA and Resogun and other types of games that don’t tell a story would need the music to stand out more.
But I do like the statement that soundtracks should me “written for that moment alone” as you say. The music should fit the game and be tailored to it. That said, one of my favorite recent musical soundtracks is Before the Storm and I suspect most of the songs in that game were not specifically written for the game, but seemed to fit so well within the narrative. The music there is a case of ‘standing out’ and being an important part of the experience and although you can feel your emotions are being manipulated somewhat by the sad acoustic tunes at times, I just can’t help but feel it. 😄
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
Western soundtracks don't often stand out for me. They go for the whole cinematic score vibe, but as a result nothing particularly stands out. Exceptions are the BioShock ones, but my favourites are Fable II and Mass Effect.
On the other hand I could list so many Japanese scores that are amazing, inventive and enhance the experience. @RogerRoger That does include Sonic. The Mega Drive ones are iconic, but of the 3D ones I've heard Escape from the City from Sonic Adventure 2 is so fun.
@Kidfried I have to agree on Breath of the Wild. The music in Zelda games has always been something I love, but Breath of the Wild just didn't do it for me at all.
Even the worst Sonic games tend to have great soundtracks.
...part of me wants to blame people's reactions against Sonic soundtracks on the games and, specifically, their perceived lack of quality in recent years.
I was once called a "traitor" for listening to tracks from Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) which, let's be honest, isn't the world's greatest game, but the soundtrack is incredible. When I asked why I was being branded as such, the fan in question said that the game was so terrible, everything associated with it was tainted and shouldn't be praised or encouraged (yeah, there are some Sonic fans who totally live up to their reputations). I just shrugged and put my headphones back on. As kindly noted by @Th3solution earlier, more power to me, right?
When music is created specifically for something, like a game, it can be difficult to separate it from the thoughts, feelings and emotions you experienced the first time you heard it. Sometimes there's game music which instantly makes me feel tense because it played on a loop during a particularly difficult boss fight (just in the same way I imagine regular people react to the popular music from specific periods in their lives). It isn't the music's fault, and when you then listen closely to the track itself, you discover that you actually kinda like it, but your knee-jerk reaction is always gonna be "skip" because of that gosh-darn boss costing you a dozen lives and a controller that totally wasn't crushed to pieces when you started playing that evening.
That's why I reckon there's two distinct levels of greatness when it comes to game soundtracks; on the one hand, there's the stuff that works beautifully whilst you're playing and, on the other, there's the stuff that you can happily listen to whilst not playing, that works as standalone music. The genius comes from soundtracks which do both; fit the game perfectly, and make for one heck of a decent playlist.
For me personally, there's quite a few examples of this genius, but it's quite often hit-and-miss. Take the soundtracks from the Arkham series; I'll happily listen to the music from Origins on a loop, it really is incredible on every level, and I'll enjoy the City soundtrack every now and again, but I very rarely (if ever) listen to music from Asylum or Knight. We were discussing Uncharted earlier, too, and that's why I singled out Drake's Deception, because it's got that little extra something that makes it a worthwhile listen away from the games. That and Golden Abyss I listen to regularly; the others, less so.
The only franchise that consistently demonstrates this genius, for me anyway, is Sonic. No matter the game, good or bad, the music is guaranteed to be of a particularly high quality, technically excellent and delivered with flair and gusto. They're joyful, epic soundtracks with surprisingly sweet moments peppered throughout, and they never fall into the "generic wall of noise" trap that so many games have recently done. There's always a melody or a theme, something that sticks with you and makes you seek out the music to listen to long after you've stopped playing. They always match the on-screen action and often do most of the heavy lifting in terms of the atmosphere and enjoyability of the games (especially for those levels you have to keep restarting, thanks to the trial-and-error aspect of the franchise). They're also amazingly diverse, with an absolute ton of musical styles and forms represented over the years. No offence to anybody reading, but those who think it's all repetitive chip-tunes or fast-paced techno-rock couldn't be further from the facts.
Last year's much-maligned Sonic Forces features a world map with a subdued, yet stirring, orchestral theme performed by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. As you progress the storyline (about building a resistance whilst also building your own self-confidence) you start to notice subtle layers of electronic beats being added over the top, until you reach the final act and you realise that the very same orchestral melody has grown into a triumphant march. There's a level of musical storytelling going on that's always been there in every Sonic game, yet so many don't notice or wouldn't even think to look for, because Sonic is "a cheesy kid's game".
I won't post all the variations, but here's the initial orchestral-only piece. Search for "Sonic Forces - This Is Our World" if you're interested in hearing Phase 1, Phase 2 and the full mix.
Forgive the long wall of text. This is everything I meant when I wrote that one line yesterday, but haven't had the time to put down in sufficient words. I know that I'm totally biased in this (without being too dramatic, Sonic has literally saved my life before, and I've just finished the main story of Sonic Unleashed on PS2, which always makes me emotional) but it gives context to my initial claim and subsequent snarky comments, if anybody's interested.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@Ralizah Funny you mention Breath of the Wild. When my partner and I were playing it, we reached that bit where Link is shown the tapestry and the classic Zelda tune plays ever-so-softly and subtly in the background. My partner, a huge Nintendo fan, got super-excited and called it "magical" whereas I (in my head; I wasn't about to bring down his mood) simply went "Been playing this game for almost three hours now and that's the first bit of music I've actually noticed."
Turns out it was the last, too. Not great.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger The music picks up in story moments and set-pieces (and Hyrule Castle), but otherwise it's very subtly integrated into the rest of the sound design. I think it was a great approach for this particular game, but it has its drawbacks, and I wouldn't want it to become the series norm.
If he's already emotionally invested in the series and its musical cues, I can see why he would have that reaction. And why you wouldn't, considering you're not a Nintendo fan.
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