Topic: The Movie Thread

@KALofKRYPTON The Killing Joke is one of the best comics there is. I think you may have read a different comic or something, because that's not The Killing Joke I read.

I read one of the best told Batman comics, that questions insanity in a stunning way and provided us the modern day Batman and Joker. Also, the illustrations are so strong, with every panel being full of expression.

@Kidfried It's easily the most overrated comic ever written. Bolland's art is great. A Death In The Family is better, Year One is Better, Hush is way better, Knightfall is better.
The majority of The Shadow of the Bat run is better.

The Joker 'origin' is the best take away. And TDKR arguably did more to shape modern Batman. As I say, adolescent slashfic and boring attempts at 'insanity'. I liked it when I was kid, but that's probably more down to the art being better than TDKR (I was 8). Compare the lacklustre prattle of Moore's Joker with that of say, V - two very different characters yes, but V has his own voice, purpose and sense of character. Moore's Joker is a thoroughly two dimensional depiction of someone's idea of insanity.

When was the last time you read it? The movie didn't bomb just because of the Batman relationship nonsense. You watch and realise how utterly wasted the cast is reading the lines. They've all had better dialogue in any given episode of TAS. And as what's likely Hamill's last turn as the Clown Prince, that's really sad.

Like Watchmen, it is revered by many who maybe read it once, or have a poster or are aware of it via pop-culture osmosis. Watchmen is good, and like TKJ at least brought attention to the format - but it is far from a masterpiece.

Moore peaked with The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, the sequel is decent too.

@RogerRoger Yeah, I read that the main characters are CGI but the extras are hand drawn. Also, there was one (Joker) part where it was fully hand drawn?

@KALofKRYPTON Ive read The Killing Joke pretty much every year for the last ten years or so.

I appreciate what Miller did for the character of Batman in TDKR, but overall I don't like the writing a lot.

Favorite Batman comics: The Killing Joke, Batman Inc., Batman & Robin, Black Mirror, Year One.

And Watchmen is one of my favorite comics of all time probably, so there I go. I even liked the prequel comics.

@Kidfried I like The Killing Joke - there is a context to when it was written and the impact it had.

Overall, I think a lot of the Joker/Batman dynamic that we think of today and that, for example, The Dark Knight film focused on was the symbiotic relationship between Batman and The Joker. Between The Killing Joke and Miller's Dark Knight Returns, this relationship developed which really made the Joker/Batman dynamic more than just an average villain.

@Kidfried Miller isn't a great writer either really, though his work always suffers for his artwork. TDKR works because is really was seminal, but if you've read any of the follow up stuff - it's all pretty poor.

Morrison and Loeb tend to handle Batman (and anyone, really) well, Snyder does write him really well too.

TKJ, WM and TDKR are all important for the format, they were certainly significant moments in time. Of the 3, Watchmen is the only one that really comes close to living up to it's hype and reputation.

As a kid back in the early 90s, I had little idea that TKJ was considered such a seminal work - notorious yes, but having spent so long reading other, better Batman stories - it never ceases to amaze me how many people fawn over it.

Before I weigh in on the comic discussion, @WanderingBullet is right in saying that Batman Ninja has extras (and small animals, some of which are quite important) hand-drawn whilst the main cast are CGI. Also, yes, there's a Joker section in the latter half of the film entirely presented in traditional Japanese watercolour. It's beautiful. I was quite surprised by it, actually.

@KALofKRYPTON I get where you're coming from with regards Barbara Gordon's role in The Killing Joke comic (the film just made everything ten times worse) but I've always seen it as a necessarily-ugly moment. In fact, the one decent addition made to the story in the film was the post-credits scene where she arrives back home and opens up her computer to the Oracle symbol. I think Barbara's role as Oracle has always been handled well; she's still a female superhero, no question, but she's also giving voice to those who can't fight in the traditional front-line way (something they've always tried to do with Alfred, but how much sympathy can one have with a posh, elderly butler?). There are two sides to every argument and I can certainly see both in this case but, whenever I personally flip the coin, it always seems to land showing the positive side of Barbara's character development and role. That's just me, though; I'm sorry you always get the other side. I do get it.

As for the core of the comic's story, the Batman / Joker relationship, I do think it's one of the better ones. Perhaps not the best, but it's certainly had a huge impact on how history has continued to evolve, refine and explore those drives, those personalities, these sworn enemies who are frighteningly similar in so many ways. On one level, it's a classic "hunt the bad guy" story, but the psychological manipulation and exploration of the Joker in particular is quite effective. It's nowhere near my favourite bat-comic (that honour goes to Batman: Noël, although I've yet to read Batman: Hush and you're not the first to praise it; I've got the special hardback edition sealed on my shelf) but I'd still call it excellent.

Meanwhile, I cannot stand The Dark Knight Returns in comic form. Rather than be a great comic ruined by a terrible animated film, this was something I always struggled to enjoy on paper, and yet it made for a cracking two-part animation. I think the embrace of the "this is what the future looked like in the 80s" dynamic in terms of music and presentation helps sell the satirical elements, and an amazing voice cast takes lines that never really worked for me and delivers them with enough skill and menace to ring true. I frequently re-watch those films, yet I don't own a copy of the book.

@Kidfried Good picks for your favourites! Batman: Year One is pretty great. The animated version of that was a solid effort, too. Have you seen it?

@RogerRoger Miller is a bit of a train wreck. I remember desperately hunting down the RoboCop comics he wrote based on what was meant to be his original RoboCop 2 script. Good job they didn't try to film it really, terrible.
He gets worse with age. The sequels to TDKR are utter pap! It is truly a seminal work, but he does himself no favours. Ronin is pretty good, but again - marred by his presentation.

I don't just lament Barbara - but the Batgirl mantle too. pre Crisis (On Infinite Earths) she was pretty great. Post Crisis DCc essentially abandoned her and let Moore use her as a plot device. The post credit is a nice addition - as I don't think BG (ha! I'd never noticed that!) was actually shown to be Oracle for while after TKJ; perhaps a diversity afterthought - but more Barb is always good - and I do agree that the opportunity to use her as Oracle was well taken.
But then Cassie Cain and Stephanie Brown(?) Batgirls happen. CC was great early on, then binned off. I'm not sure I actually read anything of Stephanie Brown, but again - she didn't last long either.

Do read Hush. from a structure point of view, it's actually very basic. But it's so well written, and beautifully drawn - well up there with All Star Superman.

Speaking of Batman: Hush, and I might be bias but Jim Lee draws the best looking Batman, imo.

@WanderingBullet I kind of agree... I really like Simon Bisley's stuff - but Lee is certainly on point - with the entire League actually.

@KALofKRYPTON Okay, confession time... I've never read a Superman comic.

For me, Superman was Dean Cain on television, in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, when I was growing up. That show (that fun, bonkers, yet genuinely emotional show) is the reason I love the character, but I didn't realise his connection to Batman and the wider DC Universe until I was much older and tapping back into my love of Batman. Only then did I absorb the Christopher Reeve films, the much-underrated Superman Returns and, subsequently, Man of Steel (didn't bother with Smallville for reasons various).

The same happened with Batman; it was the Burton and Schumacher films (particularly the latter) that made me love Batman, and the Animated Series helped. Then there was a gap, and then I played Arkham Asylum and fell in love all over again. It's only in recent years that I've started to fill my shelves with bat-comics, grabbing a lot of the "classics" and reading them in the wake of the films, games and television shows they've inspired.

Perhaps one day, the similar cycle will progress with Superman (and Wonder Woman, because I loved her film and would adore an Arkham-style game about her) but I'm a long way off, I think, especially considering that copy of Hush is still sealed.

Fittingly, to perhaps get The Movie Thread back on-topic slightly, superheroes have been films for me first and foremost. Reading the comics is almost a curiosity.

I think I've mentioned this before, but Batman: The Long Halloween will always be my favorite Batman GN. Fantastic, complex mystery story with noir-ish overtones. Great version of the Two-Face origin story, too. And very atmospheric art.

I can't stand Frank Miller's art or stories, so I'll leave those be.

The Killing Joke... I think it's too dependent on an almost adolescent fascination with cruelty and evil. Watchmen and V for Vendetta are much more interesting narratives from Alan Moore.

@RogerRoger I've never read a Superman comic, either. No interest.

And the first Christopher Reeve movie sucks. Never watched the others.

Man of Steel wasn't awful, but it also wasn't very good.

@Ralizah First and foremost, thank you for reminding me of a classic bat-comic I've yet to pick up. I'll add The Long Halloween to my list.

Secondly, you absolutely should see Superman IV: The Quest for Peace if you get the chance. Everybody should see that film. It's a laugh riot from start to finish; one of the very best bad movies of all time. Otherwise, fair enough. If you didn't like the first Superman, none of the others will change your mind.

@RogerRoger i remember The New Adventures of Superman, i used to watch that every week

and like you i'm more Movie than comic but mainly because if you look at all the recons and reboots in the comics it becomes a huge mess to try and figure out where to start

at least with the movies you get a pretty much consistent series, well apart from those Batman movies, i still shudder when i think of Batman and Robin

@RogerRoger Nah, that's a good pitch. I watched the first Superman expecting a decent movie, which is why I was so disappointed. Going in expecting entertaining trash from the start will absolutely alter my expectations. I'll keep you posted.

@Ralizah I actually have no words....
Perhaps start with Superman 3, it's at least good trash - and Reeve is in the best shape of his life in that film.

@RogerRoger love me a bit of Lois & Clark, damned shame it was canned when it was, but they were all happy to stop working on it. The working schedules for some great shows of the 90s were brutal. But the inventions of Tempus and Lord Nor were masterful!

As for the comics. If I could get you to read one Superman story, it really would be All Star Superman. There is no finer straight up story about a big hitter super hero out there. None.
The animated adaptation is really well done too, so you could just plumb for that.

@FullbringIchigo Please don't remind me of those terrible movies, I've tried to wipe those from my memory!

@JohnnyShoulder here go get yourself something to help you forget

Why's that?

Looks at username and avatar

Oh.

Alrighty. Is Superman 2 in that same sort of "so bad it's good" range?

@Ralizah i know this is going to get up someones goat BUT Superman Returns was actually a pretty fun movie you should watch that one after Superman 2 because even though it has different actors it's actually a sequel to it (it completely ignores Superman 3 and 4 which is a good thing as they were really bad)