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Topic: The Movie Thread

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Th3solution

@Rudy_Manchego @RogerRoger @Jaz007 I’ll be curious to read your impressions of Justice League. In some ways, it is not as strong as BvS, but there are some very good highs. I only saw it in the theater a while ago, so I need to see it again to remember properly. I won’t give any more due to spoilers, but suffice it to say that it does have a slightly different tone than BvS, but not as far into Marvel territory as you might think. It’s no Guardians or Thor Ragnarok with the constant gags all the time.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Nei

Saw Annihilation - very interesting adaptation of a book I loved. If you like quirky sci-fi movies give it a try.

Never belligerent but always uncompromising.

Rudy_Manchego

@Feena I watched Annihilation last night. Had been looking forward to it after reading the book trilogy. I really liked the adaptation, gutted I couldn't see it in the cinema here but really great and thoughtful sci-fi/horror.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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KALofKRYPTON

Some reviews in for Ready Player One. Not exactly setting the world on fire.

I enjoyed the book for what it was. Its certainly not the best thing you'll ever read, but those of a certain age and persuasion should take some enjoyment from it. The characters are paper thin most of the time, but it all rolls along at a glorious pace.

I had some concerns with the movie casting - Atr3mis and Aech mainly (those who've read the book and seen the trailers surely do too), and of course, the impossibility of licensing everything in the book.

Some reviews do seem to support that it's a Spielberg spectacle but slightly hollow. Most seem to miss a very core concept of the book. Looking forward to seeing it.

@Th3solution @RogerRoger @Rudy_Manchego As for Justice League... (Spoilers ahead if you've not seen it)I like the Ultimate Cut of BvS. But then, I thought MoS was a strong film and appreciate Snyder's style. As with almost all of their DC output though - Warner just can't help ruining these films.

Firstly - Justice League is entertaining for what it is. Some of what's in there is gold. Unfortunately, WB insisting on a 2 hour runtime, Snyder's unfortunate exit and throwing Whedon at the project utterly decimates Snyder's vision of the film. The re-shot Superman/Clark scenes, about 90% of his screen time are famously marred by the shocking CG mustachios removal.

The runtime is short for a film with so much to do. You may have noticed that 90% of even the last trailer for the film, isn't in the film. As with BvS, the cut is brutal. There are several completed scenes that were cut on youtube, and many more in animatic/storyboard form depicting what Snyder wanted to do. The remnants of the Steppenwolf/Superman/Darkseid arc are few, leading to a rushed return of Superman and complete jettison of the BvS nightmare plot.

As for characters. Batfleck, while excellent in BvS, and I really do like Affleck as Batman - is pretty poorly handled. The opening scene is the best we have of him. The rest of the film is Affleck phoning it in wearing a needlessly redesigned costume (not the 'tactical' upgrades, the cowl has been messed about with and looks horrible compared to the BvS one).

Wonder Woman is probably the best served character on show. Coming in off of the great solo movie, that's understandable. No one around to screw that up. What we get of Superman, despite some shocking effects work is brilliant- denied a proper MoS sequel, this is where Snyder was going to show Superman as Superman. Not brooding, not confused or conflicted - but accepting of his importance and role. While some important framing scenes for that were binned or cut (the full fight with the league, time on the farm, returning to the Kryptonian ship, Steppenwolf's attempts to turn him for Darkseid and meeting Alfred), the Superman on show is very well done. Again though, in a weird redesign of the suit that looks saturated and oddly highlighted (as it turns out, the new costume has silver coloured muscle plates under the mesh fabric intended to make the suit look more metallic and shine. In practice with the post effects etc, it looks like an amateur dry brushed job).
Aquaman, again losing several establishing scenes is serviceable, but mostly just there. Momoa can't be accused being a great actor - but his physicality and charm are put to good use mostly.
Cyborg, also losing many scenes is actually a great character and played well by Fisher. I would have liked to have seen more of him. His story arc serves well as the darker tone of the film and some of the effects work on him is stellar - sadly, just as much of it is not. There are a couple of real Games Master moments that are as distracting as Superman's no-stache.

Sadly, oh so very sadly is The Flash. Utterly miscast and poorly characterised for me. Flash is the 'comic-relief' in a film with too many other instances of trying to make everyone the comic relief. He has no fleshed out back story and missing what would've been a great scene of him saving Iris West (part of is was in all of the trailers, breaking a pane of glass at super speed with his finger). Perhaps Miller's casting and characterisation would have worked better as Wally West.
The suit is horrid, the effects work is... OK, but the running movement they have Miller doing looks ridiculous. I suspect he would've been better served if not for the better-by-far suit and effects work on the TV show.

Obviously, the tone of the film was changed to suit Whedon's style (thankfully, there aren't too many obvious lingering butt shots of Gal Gadot, but she was heavily pregnant by the time the re-shoots happened, so Whedon didn't get chance). Quippy, irreverent dialogue and little attention to character. The tonal look of the film also changed unfortunately. Again, in the trailers, the nuclear plant location for the final showdown was depicted with a grey atmosphere - likening to the darker scenes in BvS. Late on this has been changed to a red hue, which not only looks terrible - but feels like the decision of a media student.

Unfortunately the 'tonal change' also includes leaving Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL's scores and musical cues from MoS and BvS largely unused. Whedon/Warner roped in Danny Elfman late in the day to re-score the whole film, and while on a couple of occasions the flourish of Elfman's original Batman theme and John Williams' Superman theme is fanboy (me) pleasing - the score itself is a flat, mundane, by-the-numbers affair. You won't remember it.

Whedon is a poor fit for Snyder's style - his scenes and dialogue are markedly obvious. Most of it is fine, but there's an element of 'make it like Avengers' going on; too many attempts at quips and comedy for the runtime. Between them, Whedon and WB have spoiled Snyder's vision in a crude attempt to keep chasing the Avengers cash. JL is entertaining to a point, but could have been so very much more.

There has been talk of a proper MoS sequel - that would be great. I like Cavill, and his proper Superman would be great to watch. Whether that happens is another matter entirely.

Justice League performed weakly - so what was meant to be a two-part epic with the greatest superhero characters anyone could wish for probably wont get a follow up. The money already spent on the Aquaman and Flash solo outings may keep them afloat, but who knows. The Batman movie is in a quagmire, with no working script, no Batman and no faith.
Shazam is filming, set videos don't look great, but we'll see. Whedon is off Batgirl (thank the mighty beard of Zeus), but again - no idea where it's meant to fit or if there will continue to be a shared DC movie universe.
Wonder Woman is WB's only safe bet at the moment - thankfully, Patty Jenkins is in charge again for the sequel and Cheeta has been cast.

Edited on by KALofKRYPTON

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Th3solution

@KALofKRYPTON That’s an excellent commentary on the DC films. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

KALofKRYPTON

@Th3solution Thanks dude. It's a shame really. DC has always been my favourite. Loved Marvel for a long time, but they lost me in the 90s (Peter Parker: Spider-Man, Clone Saga...), there is so very much good to be had from the properties. It's amazing to think that WB are so very short sighted with the films but let the TV guys have so much fun throwing everything they can at their shows; I mean, King Shark! King Shark in a TV show. The CG was so expensive he first showed up for a few seconds at the end of a filler episode but used up the budget.

But, I digress. DC films have had a pretty tumultuous time of it since Burton's '89 Batman. Thankfully a lot of projects never got off the ground, but some could've been great; Darren Arronofsky's Batman:Year One is still a film I'd love to see; the mooted Batman Beyond would've been great too.

Since the MCU became a thing, Warner has gone in to some sort of jealous, paranoid shame spiral.

Unfortunately, with (the utterly mediocre, poorly messaged) Black Panther breaking sales records and Infinity War probably set to do the same; I can't see Warner making any particularly sane decisions regarding DC films any time soon.

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Th3solution

@KALofKRYPTON Yes, I can definitely feel the DC movies trying to mimic the success of the MCU. I do really like the MCU, but the last few films are starting to create some fatigue also. I haven’t seen Black Panther yet and I hear conflicting reviews. Maybe I’ll try to see it this week.
I actually think as the MCU complacency sets in, it is a perfect opportunity for Warner to capitalize on that by creating DC movies that are uniquely fresh. They accomplished that with WW and I think they can continue to bring something new to the table with Shazam and Aquaman (although I agree that I’m feeling more luke-warm on Momoa after seeing JL. I was expecting more from him) But JL seemed like a bit rushed and then the somewhat strained attempts at making it more lighthearted didn’t help it’s cause any.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

KALofKRYPTON

@Th3solution I enjoy most of the MCU too, one thing it has over WB/DC is the stability of direction. I still can't help but think of Iron Man as a happy accident, or at best - a very lucky happen stance. Favereau isn't particularly great at anything, but he managed to hit gold; more likely down to Downey Jr. But, ever since, a plan was put in place and intentions made clear. I think Warner was put back by indulging themselves the Nolan Batman films. They were (mostly) good, well received and brought cash roaring in - all the while Warner basically refusing to forge ahead with any DC property they viewed as conflicting. Then once Nolan was done and the consensus settled that TDKR was pretty crap, only then they were wanting to get seriously started in making their own superhero money machine.
They set Snyder off with his vision and then crumbled under criticism and the unsatisfactory box office results for MoS; but it was a complete, whole film that worked. They had only to look to Watchmen, which they surely did to get an idea of the sort of world Snyder was going to create.
Avengers happened while MoS was in production - and made all of the money. That started WBs rush to JL. Shame really. A bit of time and consideration and we could've had something consistent.

As for Black Panther. Your mileage may vary, I'll try not to be too spoilery. I found it bang average - obviously coming off of the bandwagon of the hype machine and the severely American response to some Black People leading a film - it feels a bit of shame to be largely underwhelmed.
There's not much wrong with it, it is too long - and the plot meanders a little bit. Given the social and political climate I also found some of the messaging to be rather irresponsibly handled; though that bears more significance of wider perceptions of the film and what certain audiences might take away from it.
Casting wise, Martin Freeman was, is and always will be a mistake (in everything), the rest are fine enough - Michael B. Jordan is easily the best thing in it and clearly enjoying hamming it up.
The CG is rather ropey in places, a lot of the panther suit stuff looks very CG.
The ending is nowhere near damning enough of the villain, his motives or his plan - and the first post credits scene really should be in the film proper.

On the whole, Black Panther means very different things in different parts of the world. That is its main success. Whether merited or not, it's making a ton of cash - and most reviewers are singing its praises as a film and as a piece of movie history. At some point, I hope, someone with significant media presence will be allowed to point out how incredibly overrated it is - as both a film, and a piece of history.

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Jaz007

I saw Black Panther and thought it was a pretty good movie. It had good characters and a well-developed plot. It also didn’t rush itself too much. Some Marvel movies of late (like Civil War, Doctor Strange, and Ragnorok) have so much going on in them they don’t leave time for more reflective moments or quiet moments, the pacing feels a little rushed. Some of these are still good movies for sure, but I fear Infinity War will suffer from this extra. They need to make less happen or make longer movies.

Jaz007

RogerRoger

@KALofKRYPTON @Th3solution Just wanted to say thanks for the DC discussion (can't comment on Marvel, I'm afraid; I watch them, I like them whilst I'm watching them, I forget all about them five minutes after the credits). I stay as spoiler-free as possible before watching films, but I've read a lot about Warner Bros. and the DC Cinematic Universe and I have to agree with a lot of what's been said. I'll try and weave in some wider commentary when I come back and give my thoughts on Justice League (because it'll be impossible to watch the film and just accept it for what it is, at least the first time around; I'll be looking for all the bad edits, rushed CGI and shifts in tone).

All I will say is that Man of Steel was, and is, my favourite Superman film (this coming from somebody who grew up watching Dean Cain and Teri Hatcher in Lois & Clark, and who equally adored Superman Returns for a loving continuation of a legacy) and that Batman V Superman not only provided a more-than-worthy sequel, but also might be my favourite Batman film of all time, too (although there's far more competition in that category, mostly from Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher and two incredible pieces of animation, Mask of the Phantasm and Under the Red Hood).

The best news this year is that, whilst not strictly a film, Batman: The Animated Series is finally being remastered for Blu-Ray. Hopefully a renewed surge of popularity might see other content created within that continuity and aesthetic (like how releasing Batman '66 on Blu-Ray helped us get two new animated films starring Adam West, Burt Ward and Julie Newmar before the untimely passing of the Bright Knight).

This is where I admit to the enormous elephant in my Opinion Room: I hated, I mean REALLY hated, where the Christopher Nolan films ended up. Batman Begins was perfectly fine as a standalone epic, but The Dark Knight (one of the most overrated films of my generation) and its sequel were near-unwatchable for me, from almost all perspectives. I'm beyond glad that the continuity was rebooted by Batfleck, and I hope future bat-films don't try to "get back to" something akin to The Dark Knight, which is alarmingly held up as some kind of gold standard. I'd rather get George Clooney back.

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BAMozzy

Generally, I prefer the 'tone' of DC's movies. The dark tone really started with the Tim Burton 'Batman' film. I think the issues though are more to do with editing and casting. BvS was good but considering the source material, the editing and the casting of Lex, it was let down. I know Marvel hasn't always got the casting right - Quicksilver, Some of the choices in the 3rd X-Men movie... That being said, the editing is 'better'. There are things in BvS that wouldn't be missed and some of the stuff that was cut was more 'important'.

With Wonder Woman, there wasn't a 'poor' casting choice and the editing didn't feel like important parts were cut. Maybe there are bits on the cutting room floor that may of improved some aspects but it didn't seem to leave 'gaps' that BvS left.

Marvel hasn't got 'everything' right - Deadpool in Wolverine is a classic example. At the worst though, most DC/Marvel films have been watchable, moderately 'fun' and entertaining - at least on face value but not all have been great. Personally I am not a fan of the Winter Soldier despite it being one of the 'best' according to a lot. Maybe its because I have never been a fan of Captain America. Civil War doesn't feel like a Captain America film - more an Avengers film.

I am looking forward to the next DC and next Marvel films - although as I rely on Sky to get to watch these, I am somewhat behind. I have just watched Wonder Woman and haven't yet seen Spider-Man, Thor Ragnorok, Justice League or Black Panther - I think that's all I haven't yet seen...

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KALofKRYPTON

@RogerRoger
Well then in that regard, Justice League will keep you very busy!

MoS is not my favourite. Superman was a big deal in my house. All of the early films on video and used to record Lois & Clark and re-watch it, a lot. My favourite is Superman 3. It's a bit crap, but Reeve was in the best shape of his life, it has some flight sequences never matched in the series and the Superman vs Clark Kent fight is - to this day, my favourite scene in any film. It also had way less Margot Kidder (her Lois was a horribly selfish depiction).
I liked Returns for the effort; the music, the overall look - but it I can't find that I disagree with the majority of criticism levelled at it. My biggest bugbear is the end flying sequence where Routh is completely CG, which was completely unnecessary as it was filmed and using the incredibly expensive and elaborate football-field-sized flying rig they created.

Superman The Movie I would say remains the 'best'. Perfect balance of all elements and perfectly pitched for the time.

Affleck was great in BvS - the transition to JL is weird. It's like you can see every inch of his being doesn't want to do it any more. IMHO, Affleck just doesn't want to stay in shape to carry on being Batman. Which is a huge shame. I fully agree, BvS Batman has been the best on screen Batman (other than Kevin Conroy).

WB/DC animation is usually on point. they have a couple of duffers - Superman: Doomsday being the worst (though they are planning a proper Death and Return of Superman). But they usually do so very well adapting the comic stories.
The Batman & Harley Quinn film was set in the TAS universe. Nice to see and hear - but it's not a great film really. I don't think there's much they didn't cover over the course of TAS, B&R and TNBA though. Running on in to Superman TAS (also very good) onwards to Justice League then Justice League Unlimited was a great progression. I'd like more of Batman Beyond, the comics carried on and were really nicely done.

No elephant. I hate Bale - in general but also as Batman. The design work and slavishly 'real-world' production design was a little annoying. Both versions of Nolan's costume are terrible - though the Tumbler and Bat-Pod are undeniably cool.
I didn't really care that much for Begins, but it was decent. I must say though that I think The Dark Night is a great film. It is too long, but I'm not even sure how it could be cut down for pacing. It doesn't re-watch very well and it's all too tempting to skip through it. TDKR - less said the better. I appreciate the expectation of a certain amount of suspension of disbelief in these things, but that was silly. And Tom Hardy's Bane was both awful and a waste of a decent actor.

I hate Affleck for taking up the mantle then blowing it off. It's likely he wont end up in Matt Reeves' The Batman. I think frontrunners to take over are Jaoquin Phoenix and Jake Gyllennhall. recent reports suggest Karl Urban is interested too. I think Urban would be pretty good - but then my dreams of a 2000AD crossover (like Judgement in Gotham) will never happen! =D

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KALofKRYPTON

@BAMozzy
X-Men, Wolverine, Deadpool etc are Fox films. Marvel doesn't make them and they don't interact with the MCU (yet!).

Batman vs Superman doesn't really have a direct comic source. A lot of the fight concept and design of the Bat Armour is lifted from Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns; an overrated comic if ever I've read one. And obviously The Death and Return of Superman - which would make an un-filmable mess!

Fully agree on The Winter Soldier. I found it quite dull.
I liked Civil War - it's based on some pretty poor bits of Marvel comics circa ten years ago - which again, as is - would be un-filmable. The main thing perhaps to take away from the MCU at the moment is where do they go after Infinity War - if anywhere. Contracts are up and other than Ragnarok, the solo films are showing fatigue. There's little to no point in a Back Widow film as Red Sparrow has just done it better. I can't see much traction in another stand alone Hulk film either. I honestly think of the Avengers - only Thor really has much left to do.

Spider-Man Homecoming is a good film. Casting is on point and I liked the story. If it has a weakness, it is it's deep dependence on the MCU.
For Marvel characters - I doubt they'll ever really do better than Raimi's Spider-Man 2.

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"Fate: Protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise." - Cmdr William T. Riker

Rudy_Manchego

Whoa - going to say it that The Dark Knight is one of my favourite films ever made. Are there problems with it? Sure but it is a terrifically tight thriller, with knock out performances and an on-screen representation of one of my favourite hero-villain dynamics ever. I like the Nolan films a lot, even though Dark Knight Rises is the weaker of the three. What works about those films is they have a start, middle and end. It was a complete journey and what it means is that someone else can come and do their take on Batman.

I get a lot of people don't feel it is the character from the comics and that is true but I think it was a great take on the psychology of Batman in a semi believable world.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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KALofKRYPTON

@Rudy_Manchego Fair. I detest Bale's performance. I don't particularly 'need' comic accuracy, also at this point, the term is meaningless - but I really can not stand his delivery of any of his spoken Batman lines. I get the psychology of what he was aiming for and have seen and read plenty on his characterisation. Just, don't like.

Should've ended on TDK. Would've still been a satisfying ending... more so probably.

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BAMozzy

@KALofKRYPTON Just because those films are made by Fox and don't interact with the MCU, they are still 'Marvel' films. I wasn't just talking about the 'connected' films of DC or Marvel but ALL films with Marvel or DC characters. Nobody argues that films like Deadpool or Logan aren't some of the greatest Marvel films and if it hadn't been for the success of the X-Men, maybe we wouldn't have had Iron Man and the start of the MCU. All these films still have 'Marvel' branding!

I know that BvS doesn't have a lot of source material for these two coming to blows but both have a long history and quality of Source material to make the film more meaningful. The Dark Knight Returns though does climax with a showdown between an aged Batman and an angry, politically-motivated Superman. The fight sees Superman fight not only an armored Batman, but also a brand-new Robin and a one-armed Green Arrow, with the latter employing synthetic kryptonite that allows the Dark Knight to triumph. Before this, they had always been seen as 'friends' and it took years before friendship returned in the comics. Anyway, the point was more about the source material of both characters, the supporting cast etc that could of been used to improve the movie - not just the collision course that Lex put these two on and the 'Martha'. There was so much more they could have done, better casting for Lex for a start. It seemed that the movie missed the mark with the DC history, missed the mark with some casting and certainly editing and also was split by the setting up of the Justice League movie and telling a cohesive Story.

As for the future, Part of the issue with having a 'connected' universe is that the cast grow old, contracts run out, get bored of playing the same role etc. That means that they either have to write characters out, move on to other, maybe less popular heroes, reboot the Universe or set it in a 'different' time zone - similar to the X-Men First Class. At least with 'stand alone' movies, they can have a different actor, focus on different storylines - whether directly from the comics or even using the comics as inspiration. I liked the Nolan Batman trilogy - not so much the third - funny how things tend to drop with the third (Superman 3, Batman Forever, Spiderman 3, X-Men 3 - even Iron Man 3 wasn't the 'best' although that was tied into the MCU). I know it gets 'tedious' with each new group also doing an Origins movie but as with comics, you don't get a 'continuous' shared universe. With the amount of reboots, different directions etc, its hard to know what is 'canon' any more - especially as the majority have ended up 'dead' at some point or another and then been alive in a different storyline.

Its easier to take each as separate and not have to watch 'every' movie in the universe to understand what's going on. Miss the Winter Soldier out for example and the films before and after are 'different' because of the events in that movie. You have to watch a movie that has little/no interest just to make sense of the movies that do interest. Not every of course as some stand-alone movies stand up in their own right because they are either introductions or 'separate' events that don't tie in to the main story arc because they happen somewhere (or when) else - off world, different time zone etc.

I have no issue with watching say a Spider-Man trilogy and then a totally different take on Spider-Man in another trilogy. Its doesn't need the same actor as the other Spider-man and can still tell a great Superhero story - doesn't need to tie in to Hulk or Iron Man movies or even tie in to the previous Spider-Man movies - just stand up on its own merits.

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JohnnyShoulder

Rudy_Manchego wrote:

@Feena I watched Annihilation last night. Had been looking forward to it after reading the book trilogy. I really liked the adaptation, gutted I couldn't see it in the cinema here but really great and thoughtful sci-fi/horror.

Don't think it was ever released in the cinema, just went straight to Netflix.

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Th3solution

Not being a student of the comics or animated series either with DC or Marvel, I guess you could call me a more casual superhero fan. I do watch all the movies from DC and Marvel and follow cinema plot lines, but as a casual fan, I enjoy the spectacle of new characters and seeing the heroes interact with each other. So I think I probably represent the less educated masses a little more who just want to see how does Hero A interact with Hero B and C and how would their powers size up against each other. For that reason I have liked the Marvel movies that get a bunch of other movies protagonists all together, as now in the later movies is happening with regularity. I can’t wait to see how the Guardians of the Galaxy interact with the Avengers in the next film. Some of this pandering to the masses creates confusion and weak storylines and characters that felt ‘plugged in’, which I think Justice League was guilty of, with Cyborg and Flash, and to an extent Aquaman just being forgettable.
I can appreciate whoever said Affleck was just going through the motions in JL. To me he seemed weak, overweight, and old compared to his companions — all actors who are buff and in their 20’s or 30’s and look more, ... heroic. I guess the 45 year old Affleck was supposed to be the distinguished elder statesman and leader but he came off looking lazy I thought.
And I agree with Spiderman Homecoming being quite good. It was a pleasant surprise.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Nei

@JohnnyShoulder it was released in cinemas in the US. Everywhere else it went straight to Netflix.

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