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Ralizah

@RogerRoger Apocalypse Now is a fine war drama. Like so many other classics, though, it has had its reputation puffed up to such a degree that new people who end up watching it are often slightly underwhelmed.

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Th3solution

Gremio108 wrote:

After reading and posting about it on here the other day, I got talking about the Ocean's films with a couple of friends. My mate said that he was loudly criticising Ocean's Twelve at a party around the time of release, when someone overheard and pointed out (without irony) that they were bound to be running out of ideas by the twelfth instalment.

I am embarrassed to say that I made a comment once on an article here for Farming Simulator 19 that I was so put off by the fact that they could have made 19 installments of such a boring premise. @kyleforrester87 had to remind me that it was 2019. 😂
I felt pretty stupid.

@LN78 I recently watched Apocalypse Now for the first time. I posted some thoughts here. (Looks like they start at comment #1955. Geez that was back in April... it seems more recent...) It’s a pain to get back several pages on the forums, but there was a small discussion there of my thoughts. I was quite moved by it, but can’t quite say I “enjoyed” it. I’d be interested what a special director’s cut would contain, because that water buffalo scene was about all I could handle. Very heavy stuff.

Edited on by Th3solution

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

LN78

@Th3solution I'm not sure if it's the sort of film that one enjoys rather than experiences, honestly and it is certainly one that can be appreciated more when one knows the frankly jawdropping circumstances of its creation. I often hear it compared to stuff like "Fitzcarraldo" in terms of the sheer lunacy (and profligacy) involved. Sheen almost died of a massive heart attack but was back on set three weeks later,for example. The sequence you mentioned is certainly not for the faint of heart. It's horrible and dare I say it somewhat excessive but it does serve its purpose so I can understand its inclusion.

Edited on by LN78

LN78

PSN: Lanooch

kyleforrester87

@Th3solution it’s what I’m here for!

As for Apocalypse Now, I’ve seen various versions of it, 4 times altogether and it really doesn’t do much for me..

Lots of people love it though, I’m sure i’ll see it again one day and it’ll click. I didn’t like Blade Runner until my third viewing

kyleforrester87

PSN: WigSplitter1987

JohnnyShoulder

@kyleforrester87 I was the opposite with Bladerunner, enjoyed it the first few times I saw it but the series of different cuts to film has blunted my enjoyment of the film.

We are now in a world of people being offended for other people who they think should be offended, who arent offended.

PSN: JohnnyShoulder

Th3solution

@LN78 Yes and I think I mentioned it before during the discussion but the movie does beg one to research it and ponder it after watching. In my reading about the filming of that scene, it was a remarkable story in and of itself and if I recall correctly the natives in the Philippines where they were shooting just so happened to be having a ritual sacrifice and Coppola was allowed to capture it on film and integrate it into the movie. There’s no way that scene could be shot in the West with the animal rights presence. At least not now. Not sure about in the 80’s or whenever it was shot
The backstory of the movie is nearly as interesting as the movie itself.

Edited on by Th3solution

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

KALofKRYPTON

@RogerRoger Well. Superman: The Movie is firmly within my top three favourite films if all time (along with Stand By Me and Robocop).
It's was as much a part of every bit of my childhood as any formative experience could be; and still for my money one of the best films ever made for Reeve's performance alone, not to mention the incredible supporting cast, insane production values, cinematography, direction and of course - the music.

I like the Superman II, it was also a perennial bit of media in our house and despite it's many flaws, there are plenty of scenes in Richard Lester's largely reshot film (his opening especially) that I prefer over what Donner did and wanted. I appreciate the Donner Cut and would've loved to see the original vision of the first film's ending and the sequel all done as Donner would've liked at the time.

But....

While much of (both versions) Superman II is really quite wonderful, even as a kid I couldn't reconcile the Superman we were presented with, with a man so ready to give up his powers (or why he should have to) and 'mission' for a now apparently rather terribly shallow Lois Lane. I really, really detest it as a bit of storytelling. You could cut it easily. So yeah. It's a messier film in all versions and a fully serviceable second part of the same story (1 & 2 were originally shot back to back, after Donner was fired and Richard Lester stepped in, he was required to reshoot at least 50% of the film to get a director credit and save the producers from having to pay Donner).

I'm not sure how aware you are of the behind the scenes drama surrounding Superman: The Movie and Superman II, but it's pretty interesting and unscrupulous stuff.

I love Superman III! I'll concede that it's not the greatest of films - but it is a great Superman film. Reeve was in the shape of his life, Annette O'Tool is fantastic and while not his finest hour Richard Pryor is great too. The corrupted Superman vs Clark Kent fight scared me more than any creature feature or horror film I'd managed to watch as a kid 😁

Superman IV is a well documented shame. I for one appreciate Reeve's intention. I think the story is actually pretty solid and of course, topical for the times. The film rights changing hands and ending up in the death-grip of Cannon films was all that was needed to deliver a horribly under-financed mess.
Given the money and care of Superman: The Movie, I think 4 would be far more fondly remembered.

And of course, there's Supergirl, which I'd love to hate, but don't. Casting was spot on in Helen Slater, the story set up doesn't suck, but again - tiny budget and they couldn't get Reeve on board in time. Also, it has Peter Cook AND Peter O'Tool in it!

PSN: KALofKRYPTON (so you can see how often I don't play anything!)

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"Fate: Protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise." - Cmdr William T. Riker

themcnoisy

@Th3solution @LN78 @kyleforrester87 what's the general consensus on Oliver stones Vietnam stuff? I found Platoon and Born on the 4th of July bleak but very powerful, thinking about them for days and weeks (in the case of Platoon) later.

I'm not a huge fan of Apocalypse now, the imagery is top notch but I really didn't like the story at all. I found Platoon to be a more grounded and real film, something you can definitely see happening when led by people who dislike or are in a power play with each other. Something I have witnessed first hand and when the leaders have personality defects it can really disable the team below them. I think Platoon details that better than most War films.

Jar head is also a good war film. It hasn't stayed with me like Platoon but the stuff were his oppos are splitting up with there partners back home is something very real in the armed forces. Although it never happened to me I've seen blokes reduced to tears, unable to work due to the conflict and stress going on in their lives. As you are on duty, the stuff everyday civilians have a chance to put right just isn't an option. You have to fulfill your obligations before being relieved of your role - something which doesn't always come to pass when you expect. And back home it's gone to pot.

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themcnoisy

@KALofKRYPTON @RogerRoger Superman 2 is my favourite superhero film of all time. The part were Zod is at the Daily Planet. Going nuts, grabbing Geme Hackman by the neck. Then superman turns up. 'General Zod, would you care to step outside?' absolutely amazing. I think I like the way the bullies just do what they want and the 3 baddies are well cast. Then Superman comes back. As one bystander puts it 'this is gonna be good'.

That said the best line is in Superman 3 with the Kent vs Supes fight you refer to. 'you've always wanted to fly Kent - then knows your chance'. I've watched that fight loads of times. And once it's all over Kent rips open his shirt to reveal his superman logo and the theme tune plays. Fantastic.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

LN78

@Th3solution It's a common misconception that Coppola (who was in throes of some serious meglomanaical insanity by that point) demanded that the poor creature be sacrificed for the purposes of the film. If you get a chance to read his wife Eleanor's fascinating production diaries (and see the accompanying film) I highly recommend them. Not only did Brando essentially hold the production to ransom (he felt sleighted by his poor compensation for his work on Coppola's earlier masterpiece "The Godfather") but the Marcos regime was in the midst of a civil war and kept requisitioning the film's helicopters, several sets were destroyed by torrential rains, the original star of the film (Harvey Keitel) got sacked,Dennis Hopper had free access to huge amounts of hallucinogenic drugs with predictable results and Coppola (who seemed to believe he was Christ reborn) was having several very visible affairs with the Playboy Bunnies right before the eyes of his disbelieving wife. All this as well as the aforementioned heart attack suffered by the leading man. Just amazing.

Edited on by LN78

LN78

PSN: Lanooch

kyleforrester87

@themcnoisy hmm I’ve seen Platoon at least once (but perhaps not quite twice) but I can’t really recall much of it so it couldn’t have left a huge impression. I’m not that big on war movies I suppose, I like Full Metal Jacket and I have a soft spot for Enemy at the Gates (although I understand a lot of people say it’s not a very good film lol). Hurt Locker was alright. More recently I saw and enjoyed Dunkirk and Fury but by and large it’s not a genre I’m that into...

I do occasionally find myself watching and getting into a random old black and white war movie though. I saw and enjoyed the original Dunkirk with Richard Attenborough a few years ago. I really need to watch Dambusters don’t I.

I heard Hacksaw Ridge is worth a watch.

And Saving Private Ryan is absolute tosh.

Edited on by kyleforrester87

kyleforrester87

PSN: WigSplitter1987

KALofKRYPTON

@themcnoisy
I do really love Superman III! Him getting tanked on Johnnie Walker red and smashing the back bar up... What would you even do?! 😂😂

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"Fate: Protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise." - Cmdr William T. Riker

Th3solution

@LN78 Ooops... I misspoke earlier and said Scorsese when I meant Coppola. For some reason I get those guys mixed up. That, and Martin Sheen had me thinking “Martin.” I have corrected my previous post for future generations to be free of the misinformation 😄
Anyways, I did not know many of those details. Very interesting.
I did rather enjoy seeing a young Harrison Ford in the film, even if it was a small role.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

LN78

@Th3solution It was pretty funny seeing the promotional material for the "redux" re-release had Ford's name above the title to dupe the uninitiated. His character was named "Lucas" for some reason that escapes me...

LN78

PSN: Lanooch

RogerRoger

@Ralizah That tends to be my take on most "big name films" I come late to. I recall @Th3solution posting his thoughts on Apocalypse Now earlier in the year (wait... in April...?! Holy mackerel, where has this year gone?) and was on the fence at the time, if I recall. I was glad when he warned me about the animal abuse, because that's one of my red lines anyway, so I'd have instantly hated the entire film had I gotten around to giving it a look-see.

As this page of replies is proving, though, I think a lot of film fans are drawn to projects which have interesting development details and behind-the-scenes tidbits. Despite having never seen the film itself, I'm aware of some of the production stories being outlined (and others I'd never heard before don't surprise me) and so watching with that knowledge, watching the actors and not their performances, would be very different to just watching for the sake of a couple hours' escapism. Whether that's as responsible for its reputation as the actual quality of the final product is only something each individual watching can answer, I suppose.

That's not to belittle or undermine the opinion of anybody who genuinely adores the picture, or any similar picture, by the way. Pre-emptive apologies if I'm coming across that way.

@KALofKRYPTON Seems like all of today's posts are variations on a theme! As yeah, I'd heard a little about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans on those first couple Superman flicks. I wanna say the name "Salkind" at this point, and you'll hopefully know what I mean? And of course, we've all heard about the production woes of Superman IV: The Quest for Peace... heck, you don't have to hear them, you can see them in every frame of that nightmare.

But whilst I'd likely say from memory that I prefer Superman II overall (with fond memories of everything @themcnoisy is listing up there), I do understand where you're coming from with your objection on a single plot point, especially one that drags such an iconic character down alternate paths (which takes great care to pull off). Given that my background knowledge of Superman is limited to a childhood spent watching Lois & Clark, I guess it didn't strike me as much as it did you, but I will admit to thinking of it a bit of Hollywood sap... which I'm not necessarily against, but then I was viewing Superman as a Hollywood character and not as a comic book legend.

I've got them all on Blu-Ray and should really give them another pass at some stage. I did know that we agree on Superman III being a nice piece of fluff. Shame it couldn't be good ol' Lex Luthor in the villain's seat, but Napoleon Solo is a welcome consolation prize.

PSN ID: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

KALofKRYPTON

@RogerRoger Yep, the Salkinds, and with them Pierre Spengler. Absolute wrong 'uns!

If you have time, have a look for Ilya Salkind's original treatment for Superman III. It's absolutely bonkers! 😂

PSN: KALofKRYPTON (so you can see how often I don't play anything!)

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"Fate: Protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise." - Cmdr William T. Riker

Rudy_Manchego

@RogerRoger Apocalypse Now is one of my favourite films and it is based on one of my favourite books but I would agree that the making of the film is part of the film itself if that makes sense. It is life imitating art and all that. The chaos and madness of the film production, the bizarre actions of some of the actors that leads to some off the wall performances, do make the film larger than life. It is not a film I recommend to people because as a film, it isn't particularly good but I think it is an interesting experience.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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LN78

@Rudy_Manchego That pretty much encapsulates my feelings on the film as well. I think it suffers both structurally and narratively in places,notably in the third act and especially in the in again/out again French Plantation sequence but as an experience that seeks to approximate the visceral sensation of what being in that war must have been like it's unmatched. The behind the scenes chicanery (Coppola famously compared the making of the movie to the war itself) only adds to the verisimilitude.

Edited on by LN78

LN78

PSN: Lanooch

RogerRoger

@KALofKRYPTON Will do. I think I might've before (or at least glanced at an overview) but when I'm re-watching them, I'll do background research.

@Rudy_Manchego @LN78 Thanks, guys. That's exactly what I was trying to articulate!

PSN ID: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Rudy_Manchego

@LN78 I actually don't really like the Redux version because of the plantation scene. Same with the Playboy sequence when they need fuel. I feel they slow the descent into madness and make the film worse. I mean they are interesting to watch but the original cut feels best to me (which is quite rare, I normally prefer directors cuts).

@RogerRoger I recommend the documentary Hearts of Darkness which is the making of the film by Coppola's wife. Really interesting film.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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