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Topic: Manga and Anime discussion

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Ralizah

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy The imagery in the opening theme for EL was a homage to the works of Austrian painter Gustav Klimt. This should make the homage VERY clear:

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The title itself is lifted from a Goethe poem, "Elfenlied." The theme features biblical verses sung in Latin, so it could easily be mistaken for a church hymn. It's a lovely piece.

You mean Lucy becoming kind of a braindead moe blob? Yeah, it reminds me of Chii from Chobits, except terrible.

I give Psycho-Pass credit for portraying a kind of techno-dystopia that would actually be a livable place (in so much dystopic fiction, it seems to me like the setting is purely there for mood and themes that the writer wishes to explore, without actual thought being paid to the logistics of actually living in such a place) and for morally evaluating it in a way that doesn't devolve into finger-shaking and dull platitudes about the value of human freedom, but I felt like, in many ways, it was constrained by the same limitations as the work it sought to pay homage to (90's, primarily American, science-fiction cinema).

RE: the violence, while I don't mind violence being... heightened to make the effect more visceral, it directly slams up against the central concept of the society. In Psycho-Pass, mental health isn't just desirable, it's a prerequisite for being able to live freely. The show goes so far as to show how an assault victim temporarily becomes dangerously psychologically unstable as a result of the violation visited upon her (the woman you mentioned in your post). Why, then, would you use guns that needlessly destroy people in the most traumatizing way possible? If the goal is mental health, you'd seek to make weapons that cause as little external destruction to the criminal as possible to ensure the mental health of bystanders. Actually, you wouldn't kill people at all, because that, in itself, is traumatizing. You could easily design high-powered weapons that stun the criminal, and then later dispose of them in a facility, away from public eyes (actually, the Dominators in the show already do this if the criminal quotient or whatever the equation Sybil uses to determine your criminality is called is sufficiently low).

I do like the show's primary writer, Gen Urobuchi, though. Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero are two of his other big series, and they're some of the best anime I've watched since the turn of the century.

EDIT: BTW, if you're like me and are inordinately sensitive to emotional torture porn involving animals, I highly recommend this website.

https://www.doesthedogdie.com/

I have actual animals who are old and could die any day. I don't need Hollywood to constantly remind me of their inherent mortality by always killing them off for cheap tears.

This is why I don't watch what I call "dog movies," either. They almost all end with the dog dying. I hate it.

Edited on by Ralizah

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy

Oh wow... That is quite the homage indeed @Ralizah . It was quite nice and as you said the latin hymn like singing is lovely and really does give it a good first impression. Shame it's the only good thing about it.


As for Psycho-Pass.

Rule of cool's probably the reason why they still have them (Excellent point on your part though)

I mean having invisible guns would just be such a hassle and ya wouldnt be taken seriously at all!

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(Thanks Yu-Gi-Oh & 4kids!)

No idea what those two anime are but I'll keep my eyes open due to the writer!


and good to know. I unfortunately lost my Jack Russel Poppy last year so yeah this'll be nice to have that as a handy little guide.

I too don't watch dog movies for that reason too, no matter heartwarming they may be at first!

Edited on by Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy

Ya don't need to save the world to find meaning in life. Sometimes all ya need is something simple, like someone to take care of - Aigis Persona 3

PSN:GoddessFoxy-E

》My No Commentary PS4 Youtube Channel《

FullbringIchigo

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy what about a hammer gun? (again thanks to the fantastic people at 4kids)
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"Don't try to be a great man just be a man and let history make it's own judgments"

Ralizah

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Madoka Magica... ah, you know, go into that one as blind as possible. It's worth it. Part of the show's appeal is the way it subverts popular tropes in the magical girl genre. It's also just a really darn engaging story. If you've ever read Faust, that should enhance your experience, although it's by no means necessary.

Fate/Zero is an interesting case. The broader Fate series it's based on is, imo, complete trash, and was originally adapted from a hentai game. But, for whatever reason, the stars aligned for this prequel series, which was based on a series of light novels. Urobuchi's writing is intelligent and delves into some fascinating philosophical themes. The animation studio Ufotable worked on it, which famously made its visuals really gorgeous for an anime series. Best of all, it works perfectly as a stand-alone story, so you don't need to expose yourself to the haremy nonsense that plagues the rest of the franchise.

Very true on the "rule of cool." If I sound harsh about Psycho-Pass, it's because I'm a huge Urobuchi fan and so expect a lot from anime he's deeply involved with. It's still a really neat show, though.

RE: animals, in the past six years, we've lost two cats (one to a liver condition which we didn't know he had until we found him hiding behind the washing machine groaning in horrible pain, and one that we put down because he was getting too old and his quality of life was diminishing, so it wouldn't have been fair to keep him alive) and two dogs (an Aussie pup that unfortunately managed to jump our fence and get hit by a car, and a mutt, who was probably my all-time favorite pet, who developed some horrible condition that made him lose the ability to use his limbs and needed to be put down, as there wasn't any sort of medical intervention that would save him). So I've definitely had my fill of animal pain and suffering. I don't need it in my movies.

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Jaz007

@Ralizah For Phycho-Pass’s violence, I think something to consider is that it allows the gun to destroy bigger objects that are threats (like when they shoot the mechs) and makes sure the execution is final without a doubt, it won’t be survived. The idea is that the moment you become a threat you’re gone. It instills merciless system, and having them taken to a facility for it where their phycho-pass could become lower adds a element of hope and mercy that defies the series concept and doesn’t work for it thematically.
As for the logic with the effect on the mind, it in part means they have the “dogs” for the inspectors, so it doesn’t really come across as a waste for the system they have. It actually makes sense in a twisted way.

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

Ralizah

@Jaz007 Well, in general, people who aren't off-the-charts in terms of criminal potential ARE taken to facilities for rehabilitation purposes. The concept of the series is only really coherent insofar as there is an element of logic and internal consistency to the standards enforced by Sybil. The series itself goes to pains to stress both the positives and negatives of living in such a place. It's not meant to be an inhospitable hellscape, but a fully realized society. To that extent, guns that make people explode, which must inevitably traumatize anyone who sees such brutality, doesn't gel with the themes and focus of the series.

I don't mind the idea that the gun has some super-powerful mode for extraordinary threats, but raining hell on everyone who's emotionally unstable (such as the forementioned assault victim near the start of the series) strains credulity for me. Maybe in a totalitarian hellhole, but not so much in a painfully rational society organized from the buttom up by a computerized intelligence.

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Jaz007

@Ralizah To me, the entire point is that choice and real freedom are taken away, that it’s not worth it. It also uses what Sybil is to drive home the point. It’s run by a bunch intelligent of pychopaths. At the core, they love the control over society. It’s not a good force behind it all. It’s a power-trip, taking away freedom like will always result in some form of that.
The “villain” of the first season is honestly the hero by the end. The main character isn’t a good person, the reason her pycho-pass never goes up is an insane amount of self-righteous. She serves evilly without any guilt because she can’t see beyond herself, the big picture. Makishima’s goal is let people have free will, so show if they’re good or evil. To remove a greater evil. It was what he was always doing, maybe not in the right way at first, but he was at the end. He let them all get caught because they were evil and reaped those consequences. He let them choose their path in life but not the consequences.
I got a little off topic, but the point is that Sybil is evil and they started doing wrong things when they might be exposed, they don’t follow their own rules if they’re threatened by their lack of perfection being exposed. There’s going to be an inherent lack of purity in things like the guns because of that. They want to kill those they deem so “unworthy.” Or that’s my explanation for the guns at least, right or wrong.

Edited on by Jaz007

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

Heavyarms55

There was a Psycho-Pass movie right? Was that new content or just a movie adaptation of earlier seasons?

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Ralizah

@Jaz007 That's certainly an interesting reading of the show, but it's one I sharply and fundamentally disagree with. Makishima is certainly NOT the hero of the piece. Actually, given the writer, I'm tempted to say that there's no point of view from which the viewer is ideally morally situated, although Tsunemori is easily the closest thing to an audience surrogate in the show. Either way, Makishima could have been an interesting villain for me if he hadn't been so transparently sadistic with his actions. He prattles on about free will and whatnot like a kid in their first college philosophy course, but, at the end of the day, his justifications in the show are merely an excuse for sowing chaos to disrupt the status quo. Now, maybe you feel the status quo is "evil" and needs to be changed, by force if necessary, but is terrorizing a society with a campaign of mass murder, sadism, and threatened starvation in any way justifiable in any scenario? I'd say no. Makishima knows that, too, which is why he feeds himself a line of trivial bull about "free will" to legitimize actions he knows to be monstrous. I doubt his behavior would ultimately lead to a society without a larger regulatory force watching over it, either. It'd cause chaos and, in such situations, societies usually become MORE unjust and totalitarian.

I guess the biggest point of disagreement for me is that I don't think the society in Psycho-Pass is meant to be considered "evil." It's really not. While it has many major flaws (primarily, not understanding the human need to have the room to grow internally and strive for continually greater heights in their personal lives), the Sybil System is continually working to engineer a philosophy and organization of state that leads to human flourishing as much as possible. It's easy to see how late stage capitalism, rampant violence, poverty, etc. could lead to a society adopting a system where computerized intelligence has arranged a sort of artificial harmony. It's an easy system to criticize, especially from the stand-point of an American who has been taught that personal liberty can and should trump all other concerns in life, but it merely represents an extreme example of a society that leans away from the notion of liberal democracy as the solution to all things. And liberal democracy itself, if it doesn't regulate human behavior, can easily become voluntary rule by corporate power, can become plutocratic, as America has become. I don't really like the social arrangement in Psycho-Pass, but the intelligence at the core of it, at least, is one that is continually striving to improve, and is one that is untainted by greed and a lust for power for its own sake. It is not necessarily an evolutionary dead end for a society. If anything, if you look at China with its Social Credit system or America, where you be deplatformed and banned from engaging with private businesses for espousing thoughts that aren't socially sanctioned, the Sybil System seems to be a portent of where humanity could be heading at some point. I find the idea of that disturbing, but perhaps a false harmony and rationally-ordered society that continually improves itself is preferable to a society that will eventually consume itself through cannibalistic corporatism. If there is virtue to be had in opposing it, it certainly won't be found in Makishima and his hollow, nihilistic philosophy or his complete lack of compassion for human life (granted, the Sybil System is composed of intelligences that lack compassion for human life, but this capacity is used for the constructive purpose of designing an ideal society free of bias or ideological qualms).

Honestly, Kogami is far more virtuous in terms of being a character who fundamentally cannot abide the society he is living in. He doesn't use this disagreement to hurt others, but, instead, protests with his almost complete rejection of the Sybil System by the end of show, and his insistence on using his own mind and his own judgment to live according to his own terms. Tsunemori herself isn't simply the evil embodiment of the Sybil System's will, as she shows herself willing to defy and question it throughout the series, but she also doesn't try to destroy it because she thinks what will come of plunging such a controlled society into complete chaos is worse than working with the system and helping it to improve to the point where the society itself becomes an easier one to live in. I'd say both Tsunemori and Kogami are meant to be virtuous, if incompatible, personas for the audience. Tsunemori is the critical, intelligent, but pro-social person who can live with the idea of human life being regulated heavily if it leads to greater flourishing. Kogami is similarly critical and intelligent, but is fundamentally an individualist at his core, and cannot live in the sort of society that Tsunemori seeks to improve. I don't think either path is meant to represent a moral ideal for the audience, though, and it's easy to sympathize with both approaches.

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy

... 4kids did one piece?! I thought they only did pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh @FullbringIchigo! That's hillariously bad editing!


From looking at the wikipedia page there's actually three Psycho-Pass films @Heavyarms55 and they seem to be different? There isn't a whole bunch of info about them though...


That's cool with me @Ralizah if you were harsh on Psycho-Pass (I don't think you were at all actually) it's your opinion.

I think Dragonball, One Piece and Fairy Tail are bad (Well more wasted potential for fairy tail and over relience on the power of friendship) and quite like Bleach, The non shippuden part of naruto, the first half of Death Note ... Would be boring if we all liked and had the same opinion on things

I mean I just watched Psycho-Pass on Netflix on a whim and ended up enjoying it... I'm not that invested anyway lol

Edited on by Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy

Ya don't need to save the world to find meaning in life. Sometimes all ya need is something simple, like someone to take care of - Aigis Persona 3

PSN:GoddessFoxy-E

》My No Commentary PS4 Youtube Channel《

FullbringIchigo

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy yeah they did up to the Alabasta Arc then Toei pulled it and it went to funimation who have since gone back and redubbed it all uncut but that wasn't the only bad thing they did with it, for example they changed Sanji's cigarette into a lollipop
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or changing guns into super soakers
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and they made a lot more, you should look them up

"Don't try to be a great man just be a man and let history make it's own judgments"

FullbringIchigo

funaimtion just announced that they have brought Australian anime distributor Madman and french distributor Wakanim, this now means with their procurement of MangaUK a few months ago funimation now how a world wide distribution network

and just like MangaUK they will still continue to licence and distribute none funimation shows independently so this means it's just easier for funimation to get anime out all over the world

"Don't try to be a great man just be a man and let history make it's own judgments"

Ralizah

@Heavyarms55 @Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy There was one movie that released a few years back, and a new three film series that fleshes out different side characters in the Psycho-Pass universe. Also a VN that I wasn't really happy with.

The only shounen action series I've REALLY enjoyed are Rurouni Kenshin and, so far, Demon Slayer. It's a boring genre to me. I'm much more into shoujo, josei, and seinen stuff in general. I'm much more likely to watch a weird, smaller show than I am some action extravaganza.

Admission time. I don't think it's a bad show, but I've never really fallen in love with Cowboy Bebop the way other people seem to have. It's... OK. I can admire its virtues, but it doesn't do much for me. The Girl Who Leapt Through Time bored me to tears both times I watched it. I prefer the older Vampire Hunter D to VHD: Bloodlust. And Junjou Romantica is such a creepy, poorly-written show with identical looking characters (typical of yaoi, I've noticed), that I legitimately struggled to finish its first season.

Edited on by Ralizah

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

Jaz007

@Ralizah Interesting thoughts. I think a scene that does a lot for the characters of Sybill and Makishima is when he's alone on the helicopter with the part of Sybill that's in the body of the police chief or whatever the role technically was and he's offered to join Sybill. The pitch is that he'll be a God that gets to rule's people's thoughts and be immortal. He'll have ultimate control over people. To me, this show's what Sybil really is, a dictator that wants only the thoughts it approves allowed in people's minds. Where someone who makes rock music is locked up and looked at as a villain by the main cast even. Makishima is then offered a choice, almost of what kind of "God" he wants to be. He has two options, one that's goal is to give people free will with the good and bad that follows, or one that forces a “perfect” society where he decides what perfect is.
I don't think he's entirely right in all that he does, but towards the end my perspective is that you have a system so bad that people aren't allowed to even think about desiring their freedom and petitioning for it: peacefully or violently. Makishima is alone, he's the only man that has the ability to have these thoughts, and it's because of being a psychotic, having a naturally impaired conscience. Despite this, he finds himself wanting to do the right thing at the end of the day. He honestly realizes good and evil even with an impairment to feel it like us, which gives him his apathy towards human life.
Now, given that he's the only person that can fight this awful system of dictatorship, would he not have a duty to? This is where I find his later actions justified. After playing around with giving freedom in ways that are more wrong, he sees he could give it to everyone, and this becomes his goal. At this point, I think it's justified because it's a war, a war that only he can fight. A war has collateral damage and in this case is so desperate that when he fights for the real goal, his actions are completely justified. The chaos that would ensue after telling people the truth of Sybill was a way that would do less harm than the starvation. The "best" solution, given that any will cause destruction. He only chooses the more chaotic option of starvation when forced to. A civil war where half the people would be easier to support as a situation, even though it would also involve mass amounts of death and destruction, but it's him almost alone fighting that justified war. Though I honestly believe that anything is better than the oppression of freedom that Sybill offers, it's not worth any cost.
I also think that Makishima would fight for justice and order, for evil to have consequences after the societal collapse because he always had a vested interest in those who are evil allowed to being evil, but facing justice as well. I think he would be a leader to help restore order to society if he could be one.
But thanks for the discussion, it's interesting to see an opposing view point on it all. I like that we get such different meanings out of it.

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

Heavyarms55

@Ralizah I initially liked Demon Slayer, but after the introduction of the coward and the boar I quickly grew to hate it. I found they completely changed the tone of the series, and not in a way I liked. And the coward in-particular I can't stand as he seems like a rapist waiting to happen.

Most shounen anime have lost me over the years. Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Piece, all lost my interest for various reasons. I did finish Bleach, but the ending was atrocious, that series went down hill hard and only stubbornness kept me watching. I've enjoyed Fairy Tail quite a lot though. Though I also admit is has some serious flaws too. My Hero Academia is okay, but I often complain that it's much more Academia than Hero and "battle-school" anime was the iisekai bandwagon of 5 years ago. I must have watched a dozen different season "battle-school" anime between 2010 and 2015.

Thanks for the info about the movies and VN for Psycho Pass. Years ago a lot of anime got movies that were just re-edits of the TV show for people who lacked time to watch the whole season. I am kinda glad that trend has faded away.

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Ralizah

@Heavyarms55 I didn't like how the somber, borderline seinen vibe of Demon Hunter changed when it introduced the companion characters either, but it still manages to have some pretty decent storylines, and the action is still pretty decent. Zenitsu ("the coward") is interesting, though. From what I understand, his introduction kind of saved the manga in Japan, and reader really took to him there, but Western audience watching the anime almost universally hate him with a passion.

Rurouni Kenshin was incredible through the Kyoto arc, but, rather infamously, instead of waiting to adapt the excellent third arc of the manga, which was still running at the time, producers decided to do an anime original storyline for the third part, and it's just the worst thing ever. The manga is pretty fantastic the entire way through, at least, and I guess the upside to the TV series never being properly adapted in full is that we got the gorgeous, tragic masterpiece that was Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal.

Edited on by Ralizah

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

FullbringIchigo

@Ralizah it'sjusta shame that the new Manga will never get finished in English, no english manga publisher will pick it back up not after what happened

"Don't try to be a great man just be a man and let history make it's own judgments"

Ralizah

@FullbringIchigo Man, I get so sick of the people who make the things I like turning out to be creeps. Recovery of an MMO Junkie, for example, was probably my favorite anime of 2017, and I still love it, but it's a little tainted now because the director is apparently one step away from being a neo-nazi, and posted a ton of bizarre anti-semitic stuff on Twitter. And then the Watsuki child porn thing happened.

On the literature front, John Scalzi and Orson Scott Card are both excellent novelists who are just... intolerable people. Although thankfully nothing as bad as nazism/pedophilia.

Ugh.

Edited on by Ralizah

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

FullbringIchigo

@Ralizah yeah tell me about it and it's currently happening with Dragon Ball, probably my all time favourite series and all the behind the scenes drama going on there, you got the current Manga artist Toyotaro being accused of plagiarism on some of the earlier chapters and the assault and defamation cases going on between some members of the english voice cast

i try to ignore it all but you can't help but feel a little bit put off by it all

"Don't try to be a great man just be a man and let history make it's own judgments"

Ralizah

@FullbringIchigo Yeah, I try to separate the art from the artist as much as possible ("never meet your heroes" is a phrase for a reason), but social media sites like Twitter are such massive echo chambers that it becomes almost impossible to ignore controversy if there's substance to it (i.e. not something like critics trying to sink Joker by trying to tie it to incels and white supremacist violence for no good reason).

I'm glad I'm not a fan of anime dubs, because the Vic Mignogna case, in particular, is probably the closest thing we've seen to an AnimeGate. Lots of anger and ridicule and conspiracy theories.

I'm inclined to say humans weren't ready for the sort of interconnectivity the internet enabled, but pretty much any massive change forces the affected species to adapt or perish. That's just how evolution works.

Ralizah

PSN: Ralizah

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