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Topic: Is the Game Industry Heading for another collapse?

Posts 41 to 53 of 53

themcnoisy

@Dichotomy been here bro. I'm 100% in agreement with you.

Then I played Yakuza zero, ffx Vita and p4g all in quick succession. The games are there to play which are full games at point of release and they need supporting.

I do believe trading standards need to take a look at micro transactions in retail games though. It's crazy spending £45+ on a game and being asked for more.

I haven't bought a season pass in my life. (I was bought destiny season pass with the game one Xmas) Nor do I plan to. So yeah I hear you mate.

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Rudy_Manchego

@themcnoisy @Dichotomy I agree completely on the trend of monetization (as per my previous posts/rants). I think it will do the industry more harm then good long term.

I doubt trading standards won't take a look but can you imagine going to see a film where scenes are chopped out and then you need to pay more money to get them back?

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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Dichotomy

@themcnoisy With the games you listed, two of them are originally PS2 games (although, as we've seen with CoD:MW this doesn't definitely remove the risk of adding in some shady monetisation) and the third one is probably seen as too niche to risk squeezing it for more money. I'm not saying they would add it in given the opportunity, just games that come as a complete package now are in the minority. I mean, there was a relatively big fanfare about Horizon being feature complete on release which shows what a state the industry is in when it is news worthy that a game isn't trying to drain your bank account while being broken and shoddy.

To be fair, I have been playing Persona 5 for the past couple of months (still haven't finished, I don't envy those reviewers given 1-2 weeks to play through it and write up a review) so I'm not saying everything is doom and gloom (even if I felt like the costumes/bmgs would have been far better as rewards for playing than as overpriced DLC). I still enjoy playing games, it's just that I find more and more I'm missing games out that I may have bought if they'd released without all the rubbish (Deus Ex and SFV spring to mind).

@Rudy_Manchego I think quite often it is a case of the law is unable to keep up with technology and quite often they really don't know what they are ruling on as they are not specialists in the field. I think at very least that any game that does or may, in the future, contain microtransactions should be forced to display the fact on any packaging or store page. Then we won't get surprise news like Destiny adding them in over a year after release, or Payday 2 devs who swore they would never have them suddenly having them.

Dichotomy

BAMozzy

@Rudy_Manchego The argument that 'content' is chopped out is VERY difficult to prove. There is a LONG time between a game being 'virtually' finished and actually releasing. In most games, the bulk of the story writing, animations, world building etc is completed and that would leave the 'bulk' of the team either doing nothing whilst others are play-testing, bug finding, optimising etc or working on the 'next' project. This gives the team 'something' to be working on whilst the game is in 'polishing' right up until Day 1 release.

Trying to prove that 'day 1' DLC was 'cut' purely for Day 1 is impossible. In a game like the Witcher 3 for example, can you prove that Hearts of Stone was 'cut' just because its location was in the main game. DLC Map Packs in games like CoD for example can also not be proved to be cut either. When you look at the content, going right back to Modern Warfare and before, the Number of MP maps have remained 'consistent' despite the increase in Map Packs overall. Its not just that though but the overall package has either increased over time or at the very least remained 'consistent' - certainly since the co-op modes have been added and grown.

I can't think of any Single Player game where the 'story' has not been 'complete' in the main game. Even Destiny that was quite 'weak', the additional Expansions were 'new' self contained story's that took place after the events of the previous content and whilst these areas may well have existed, there is no proof that the content itself was 'cut', that these weren't added as 'place' holders and/or built in because of the 'planned' time-line and 'never' intended as 'part' of the main story line in the first place. Not saying they weren't 'cut' but there is no 'proof' either way.

Do you think that the 'Frozen Wilds' was cut from Horizon:ZD because they wanted to add DLC?

Movies do chop out scenes and you 'do' pay to get them back with the 'extended' or 'Director's cut' of the movie when it comes to Bluray. You could argue that the principal is the same - selling virtually the same movie twice to customers - the first, the cinematic edit and the second, the bluray extended edit. That extra content certainly wasn't made after the film released and even the BD extras are predominantly created during the filming process.

Its no different from music Albums too. An artist will probably record 'more' songs than actually make it to the Album and some will be kept back for b-sides or collectors editions with 'bonus' tracks, maybe even for a 'b-sides and rarities' Album at some point in the future.

It annoys me that 'gamers' think they are entitled to 'everything' and that as soon as a game is 'basically' finished, the bulk of the development team cannot work on 'additional' content whilst the 'few' required to polish, port and optimise the game for the variety of platforms its releasing on. Cannot 'plan' to bring 'additional' content either. Game development in 'BIG' Studio's have different departments with 'different' deadlines. The Animators can't 'animate' until the Actors have done their voice readings and they can't do that until they have had their scripts. The world builders can't build their 'worlds' until they have had their concept artists draw up their visions. Once the Worlds are created, they are basically redundant on that 'project' except to fix 'glitches, make alterations because of the way the animations 'fit' so could easily have time to build in 'place' holders for games like Destiny.

Its not like you get to the 'final' chapter or two and you get a 'coming soon' in DLC. Well not in 99% of cases. Its not as if you are getting 'no' MP maps at launch or at most 1-2. Its not as if you have to pay the campaign, MP or Co-op components separately. Its not as if the 'pre-order' cosmetic bonus(es) are anything other than a 'Skin'. As stated before, games like TF and Battlefront got heavily slated for their 'lack' of content and both sequels are 'much' bigger. On a pound per hour basis, you get a LOT more 'value' from the 'majority' of AAA games. I know that 'value' can be difficult to assess because some games have more 'value' in their story to some people than others and trying to compare a 'budget' MP game to AAA Single Player game in terms of £'s per hour is also unfair. That being said though, in most cases, AAA games do offer 'value' and whilst I may have spent say £80 on CoD for the game and Season Pass, I have got 'Hundreds of hours' from the game and could of spent £15 on a budget game and go 5-8hrs worth.

In virtually every game - DLC and Micro-transactions are 'optional' and in almost every case, the 'DLC' is an 'expansion' on the content provided which has either grown or at least remained consistent with games that preceded these. If CoD, BF or 'other' game that is renown for having DLC, Season Passes and/or Micro-transactional content actually decreased the on-disc content whilst increasing the DLC I could understand this argument but just because a 'developer' plans to continue making new content after release, they are not necessarily 'cutting' content and not necessarily waiting until 'release' to start preparations for it either. As stated, there is a sizeable gap between the 'alpha' build and release date where the bulk of the team can work on additional content whilst the polishers and optimisers get the game ready to go 'Gold'.

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

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themcnoisy

@BAMozzy That's not what we are saying at all. The Witcher 3 is a terrible example of what we all think.

I can pretty much categorically say that heart of stone was fine practice. It was an expansion. That's fine. The Witcher 3 was complete at release.

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PLEXTOR08

Even if it was heading for a collapse (which seems very unlikely) I doubt it would be because of the hardware, the software on the other hand...

Imo the biggest risk for the gaming markets potential failure is the lack of original and actually fun games. Most people these days seem to either care the most about a safe purchase, or about good first impressions. Offcourse this isn't necessarily bad but this means that big developers are more prone to exploit this behaviour by fans. They will just keep making sequel after sequel without really changing anything substantial (cough Assassins Creed cough Call of Duty cough) and even if they DO change something its not always for the better. People will buy this because they know what to expect. This leads to less original ideas and games from big developers and even other developers as they will just re-use ideas and gameplay elements from other developers. On top of that, because people care so much about first impressions, developers and publishers are actively trying to make their game LOOK good without making them, you know, good (at least on launch) all while racking up the prices.

Gamers put up with it now but I believe there will be a moment where people get sick of it or maybe just can't afford some games anymore. And that this will lead to a collapse.

I'm a bit of a cynic though and this is all speculation so my reasoning could be completely wrong but this is how I see it

Edited on by Tasuki

PLEXTOR08

Rudy_Manchego

@BAMozzy I am sorry dude but there is no need to be rude. I am not an entitled gamer and to suggest so is very belittling. I have, and do, value your opinion but this is just a discussion.

Some games have done DLC well and I am all for that. CD Projekt Red are pretty much a standard bearer with TW3 for good practice. No of course I don't think that HZD DLC was chopped off. I think it is going to be very good and bad on the quality of the full game which was a full and complete package, I will probably pre-order.

Can I prove it categorically for every suspected instance that gamers are being ripped off? Of course not. But yes I can point to examples. The upcoming Life Is strange prequel. I can buy three episodes for a set price of £14. Or I can buy the extended edition at £20, and get a bonus mini episode available straight after episode 3 that allows me to see an additional ending with a much beloved character. No idea on length but at £6 for an mini episode it is only £1 cheaper than a full episode. Why?

Injustice 2 launched with a set roster of characters but if you spent more at launch you can get an additional character. I have just spent £50 on a launch game but to get the full roster of characters I should spend more?

FFXV, according to some of my friends who have it, has characters who disappear from for chunks of the narrative but surprise you can now buy those chunks back as DLC if you want to find out why. Not only that but the cost to length for this content is far worse value then with the base game.

This kind of thing is happening more and more. I am sorry, it just is. DLC by its nature is cheaper to produce since assets have largely been written. Profitability in DLC is high which is why publishers release it. Again, that is pretty much fact. As a consumer, if the product is worth it and it is clear that thought and effort have gone into DLC after the fact, like TLOU, TW3, and HZD looks, I don't mind buying and increasing the revenue of a game because I want to support good games. When a release is clearly being designed at launch to sell me something down the line after I have paid full price for it, well I don't think that is consumer friendly. It isn't entitlement.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

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BAMozzy

@Rudy_Manchego I am sorry that you thought I was calling you specific as 'entitled', I wasn't. I was being 'general' and there are a number who get all aggressive and criticise Developers for DLC for announcing Season Passes before a game has launched, can't understand how DLC can be 'made' by release (or so soon after) and bracket 'every' DLC or Season Pass with the same disdain. Yet when you point out something like the Witcher 3 offering a Season Pass, that's OK because its CDPR and theirs is 'good'. To CoD fans, the Season Pass is good too - More maps and co-op maps than comes with the base game. Battlefield Premium offers great value to BF players. Arguably Arkham Knights was 'poor' value as most of it was nothing but 'cosmetics'.

I would much rather hear about a Season Pass on (or even before) launch - especially as some games release with 'special' editions including these. After BF3, which announced its 'Season Pass' after the 1st DLC launched and charged the same regardless. Season Passes are optional and its up to you if you buy at launch, after the first or even wait until the full season so you know 'exactly' what you are getting and make a more 'informed' decision.

The 3 examples, you mention, I have no idea about, not games I would buy, and if that is the way they are operating, the kind of games I would 'boycott' in the hope that these decisions backfire on the publishers and they 'rethink' their strategy - as I was saying about micro-transactions. They get away with it because we allow them too.

We as gamers, are capable of forcing change. The 'Vote with the Wallet' mantra has a much bigger impact than complaining online. We shouldn't bracket everything under the same umbrella either and look at each on an individual basis. Comparing the price of CoD or BF's Season Pass as being 'too much' because the Witcher 3's was only £20. It needs to be looked at on a per-game basis. The games you mentioned above then should be taken to task and not bought until they change their attitude. Injustice 2 doesn't sound that 'different' from getting a few bonus cars in a racing game in a 'special edition' and selling the bonus cars as a DLC pack for those who didn't get the special edition. I don't see why a 'special' edition shouldn't give the 'first' DLC bonus pack free as an extra so why not a 'bonus' fighter? What was the rosta in Injustice? If it was 60 fighters and now reduced to 50, then I can understand it but if you got 30 before and now get 50 as standard, they have given you more this time. It like buying a loaf of bread that's always been £1 and 750g, and now they do a 'special edition' 1kg loaf with extra slices for £1.20 and raise the size of the standard loaf by a couple of slices to 800g for £1 then complaining they are getting 'more' than you. Like I said I don't know much about Injustice myself. I wouldn't complain though if Forza 7 or GTSport were 'bigger' than their predecessors, had more cars and tracks for my £40 and did a Special edition with a 'bonus car pack' for £60 and charged me a £5 for those cars (if I wanted them) via DLC - I am still getting 'more for my money' than I did before. The developers are still making the game 'bigger' and charging the same.

It still annoys me that people (again not you specifically) are hypocritical - especially about games they would never play. Criticising Activision for example for CoD and its Season Pass and then buying another games Season pass because its a game they enjoy and it works out cheaper. I personally cannot find a way to justify Micro-transactions in full priced AAA games but then I have bought a camo or 2 in Black Ops 2 - although not since then. I can tolerate purely cosmetic items (although think these should be sold individually - not in 'random' loot crates). Again another area of Hypocrisy - criticise one game that has these but happily buy them in Overwatch...

Still, I think this is getting away from the topic. I again apologise if you though I was calling you 'Entitled' as I wasn't. I think we need to look at each game individually. Even if you desperately want to play these games, wait until they are 'cheap' so you still vote with your wallet. I don't think we are heading for another collapse though, at most a change in practice - just hope its a positive change...

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

themcnoisy

@BAMozzy you've completely gone off a cliff there Bam.

Who are these people who moan about a season pass in cod and then buy season passes for other games? Not any of us in this discussion. We don't like the practice full stop. Remember unreal tournament? All of the map packs were free.

Both Forza and GT have actually really peed me off recently, forza in particular. All of the cars were built into the game for 1-3.when Forza 4 released a number of cars were locked behind microtransactions.

Some of said cars, Were in Forza 3!!! That's the nonsense we are talking about. Lazy microtransactions. Monetization because companies can do it regardless if it's morally correct or not. And it's not.

As for cdpr, I'm not saying Im happy with the dlc because it's cdpr. It's because the way they rolled it out was fair. The main game was huge anyway and the 2 expansions added to that experience some time after release. Proper expansions.

Loot crates are a crazy phenomenon. I don't need to point out why they are morally wrong. It's gambling. Whenever you pay money and it's random us wrong and shouldn't be allowed other than in a bookies or playing the lottery.

The example of LiS @Rudy_Manchego uses is perfect. It's so money grabbing as to be a two fingered salute. Just sell the full package for £17 rather than the 2 different packs for £14/£20. Bonkers.

Anyway after writing that I've come to the conclusion that @Dichotomy is right. We wouldn't be writing this gobbledygook 10 years ago.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

KratosMD

@themcnoisy Dude, Forza 4 has like 500 different cars, why would you be so upset that a couple of them were not available? Lol.

Also, are you talking about the Porsche cars? Turn10 couldn't get those cars into Forza 4 because EA has the licensing to them and they wouldn't let Turn10 use them for the fourth game. It's not Turn10's fault.

Link here if you want to read more about it: https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/forza-motorsport-4-6594/forz...

KratosMD

themcnoisy

@KratosMD it wasn't the Porsche cars dlc I was referring too. It was the monetization system for the on disc at release cars.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

Tasuki

Ok, we'll I think this thread has been derailed enough. We have said all our peace on whether another game crash could happen, not quite sure how we ended up about microtransactions and season passes and how people feel entitled but in the end I think we can all agree that a crash could happen but probably won't to the same degree.

Push Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

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