Topic: Corona Virus Panic/Discussion Thread

@Ralizah the links asking me to start an account so it won't let me read passed a few paragraphs unfortunately.

As for releasing LockDown and awaiting the excrement to hit the fan, it's a slow burn. If most people socially distance it can have the same effect as isolating. But that's a big fat if. I suppose by the 16th-20th days after LockDown you will know how much of a bad decision it is when deaths start racking up. Crazy to have a social experiment when there are good things coming hopefully round the corner.

@LaJettatura We don't have protest groups in The Netherlands fortunately. But we do have idiots setting telephone towers on fire, because they think COVID-19 is caused by 5G...

@themcnoisy With any test there are always false positives and false negatives. I don't know the extent of people that have been confirmed positive a second time; but it could be due to false positives alone. I'd have to look into it, but it doesn't have to mean that you can contract it again in a relatively short term period.

Day 5 of my fridge being on the blink and I’ve managed to invent the greatest breakfast of all time. I had a jar of red pesto in the cupboard to put some of that on a couple of slices of plain white bread, topped it with some Italian seasoning and salt/pepper. It actually tasted like bruschetta out a proper restaurant, except it was on normal toast. Would recommend.

@nessisonett Add some cheese, put it in the oven and you have breakfast pizza toast.

@Octane Definitely something to try when I have a working fridge. I miss cheese.

@Thrillho @nessisonett @LaJettatura
Yeah, for some reason US citizens recoil by something being termed “socialized.” What they don’t realize is that Medicare (the US system of federally funded healthcare for all citizens over age 65 and for the disabled) is basically socialized healthcare, and the average citizen would never want to give up their parents or grandparents Medicare privileges. I think if it’s called something different, people are more open to it, or as Thrillho says, after they understand what it actually entails, it’s less scary sounding to them.
Of note, I have talked to some people who are UK immigrants here who didn’t care for the NHS. I’m sure every system has its pluses and minuses. Not to mention the “sour grapes” phenomenon it may be, where as a psychological rationalization something that one can’t access is explained away as probably being of poor quality.

@Ralizah I like that article. Interesting to read actual doctors reactions and stories from the front lines. This was telling:
“A vast majority of Covid pneumonia patients I met had remarkably low oxygen saturations at triage — seemingly incompatible with life — but they were using their cellphones as we put them on monitors.”
No wonder the internet is full of people that don’t make any sense. May explain why all of a sudden hoards of people can’t figure out how to run their PS4’s! 😉

@Octane As you say it could be that or a million other things.

Yesterday it was people can't get immunity, today it's corona stays in your eye for a month etc. It's stupid, if it's worth reporting I would assume you need a few sources. Instead it's a few random unqualified samples or reports from a country with negligible cases. As sad as it is, kids die everyday, random medical issues effecting 1 in 500,000,000 occur. People were dieing of starvation before coronavirus arrived etc.

@Th3solution the fact you can go to accident and emergency and have access to doctors at any time with no cost, means you will have a better quality of life. We obviously pay more tax and the hidden National insurance tax which you may not have heard about.

If you earn £60,000 per year ($70,000 USD)

£16750 will be taken away altogether leaving you with approximately £43250. In Florida on the same salary you will take home just north of $49000. So as those figures show, A big hit on your yearly wages to the sum of £5750 (more likely $4000 per year in dollars if you factor in average earnings and dollar/pound ratio). The big difference is, as we are so used to it you don't necessarily get riled up about such a large contribution.

So yeah you can join in too but it is expensive. But we'll worth it in my opinion.

@Ralizah Great article and thanks for sharing.

This seems to suggest a reason (obviously not peer reviewed etc.) for why people are taken so suddenly, such as the case with our PM. Feels fine, suddenly can't breath whereas pneumonia is a far slower noticeable process. This is more insidious is that you seem fine if a little tired and out of it but your oxygen saturation.

Looks like that article is doing the rounds though. Out of interest i popped on Amazon to see what one of those oxygen sensors he recommends go for and refreshed a page an hour later and some had started to sell out!

@themcnoisy The way I see it regarding the difference between our healthcare system and America's is very simple. When I had meningo-encephalitis I was first taken to the emergency stroke unit (as it was initially believed I may have had a stroke) - one of the best in the country I might add - and had a head CT within a few minutes of arriving. I remember very little from that point on as I pretty much passed out and my brain was completely f*****, but a few hours later I was put on intravenous drugs that saved my life. I was in hospital for a month, saw numerous consultants across different specialties and had a raft of lumbar punctures, blood tests, MRIs and other scans and tests. And I didn't have to pay a penny. I'm alive and feel forever grateful on an extremely deep level. The nurses, doctors and healthcare assistants are heroes and I didn't need a pandemic to show me that.

My Mum has a schoolfriend who lives in Florida, and her daughter had encephalitis a few years ago. Despite having what she calls "very good insurance", they still ended up paying over $40,000. Luckily they could afford it, but for many others it is not difficult to see the financial hardship this would cause. It's the difference between someone living quite comfortably one moment and then suddenly struggling, particularly if one of the breadwinners is unable to work. If someone can't see the problem with this system of healthcare then I honestly have no words because it is simply baffling to me. We are so, so lucky in the UK.

As you say better access to healthcare improves quality of life, and I would add that socialised healthcare isn't simply important from a human rights perspective, but the notion that a healthy population is more able to work and thus feed into the economy and pay tax - something most governments the world over want their citizens to do.

I don't know many Americans, but I used to know one (yoga teacher actually, yeah that's right, I'm one with the planet) and he said that when he moved over here his friends all said "Just don't get ill in the UK". Now he was pretty well off (rented a nice flat in central London - I'd call that well off) so I figure he and his friends could probably afford decent insurance. Now what's the cost of a "decent" annual insurance policy in the states?

It's like @themcnoisy says, "spreading the cost" through your monthly pay feels better than a big upfront bill. But then if you worked for 10 years with minimal need for health care, but were sensible and put £200-£300 away a month for that period should you get ill you could have £30k for a worst case scenario.

But stuff can happen I guess and £30k can quickly become a drop in the ocean, especially if you have a family to look after.

I understand my meds cost in the region of $1000-$1500 a month in the states. I just wouldn't be able to have them. (Although I know the NHS buy them in significantly cheaper than they charge people in USA, which is pretty awful for American buyers.)

So yeah - we're blessed to have the NHS.

@kyleforrester87 It’s probably telling that even the most.... unsavoury politicians such as Farage have a certain level of respect for the NHS. People also live by their means and we’re taxed accordingly (sort of). If I had an extra £300 a month but zero access to free healthcare, I know fine well I’d spend that all on donuts and end up in hospital anyway from chronic obesity.

@LN78 I suppose that’s similar to the argument that it was Norton releasing spyware themselves just to sell us the software to remove it 😂 Tin foil hats needed to a degree but they are in it for the profits at the end of the day. The drug I am taking has in the past couple of years come out of patent, and Samsung have poured billions into developing a bio-similar which has undercut the original. Samsung wouldn’t have made that kind of investment for a “one hit and you’re cured” medicine but at the same time they have helped by creating competition and therefore lowering the price (I believe NHS buy in 4 doses of my drug at around £500, versus more like £800 for the original brand).

Isn’t that why there isn’t strong investment in a cure for the common cold? We’d all get vaccinated once, at a fixed cost, and never buy remedies again. What company is going to invest in that research?

@mookysam crikey Mooky, glad you are better now. Well that example is spot on and you can't argue with that.

The only issue with the NHS is the crazy costs for certain things within the service. I seen a poster that it costs £100 minimum per xray so don't be late for your appointments. I have no idea where that figure came from so whilst I was waiting in the hospital done some maths, looked online for xray machines, checked salaries for sonographers etc, just based on running 100 (£10,000) xrays a day I had it costed on the back of a ciggy packet at under a third. This is with rented machines so I have no idea who procures equipment etc but the maths is way wonky. The disparity only scales upwards the more xrays that occur each day too.

Also its worth pointing out that stuff isnt always covered either. Once you are working Dentistry costs money and certain procedures have to be done privately which are usually none essential (none cancerous lump removal etc).

@themcnoisy I get lots of text reminders for appointments, and they all say things like “missed appointment costs NHS £150” etc

Now, I couldn’t care less if that’s the right price or not - it’s either inflated to guilt people into not wasting NHS time (fine) or it’s broadly correct and the calculations are based on data we couldn’t begin to imagine.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2018/10/nhs-to-trial-tech-to-cut-m...

@themcnoisy Up in Scotland we’re actually covered for free prescriptions which I genuinely had no idea everyone else had to pay for until recently. I personally think we get our money’s worth in terms of taxes, at least compared to other countries with private healthcare. I’m stuck with a council who spent thousands on new chairs for their offices though so I know all about squandering public money. I’m not sure the public care though, they’re the same constituency who voted in Jo Swinson, destroyer of potholes, twice. I have to say, going down to the local fitness centre and seeing her face as she was unseated was a fun night out though 😂😂😂

@nessisonett I don’t mind paying for prescriptions even though I think I’m entitled to a discount. That’s part laziness from me and partly because I’m just an everyday hero.

@kyleforrester87 As long as you bring the money in a briefcase and keep eye contact with them as you slowly hand it over.

Yeah, one things for sure - healthcare economics doesn’t follow normal consumer economics. I don’t think pharmaceutical companies or hospitals, doctors, or healthcare entities are purposefully keeping people sick, but perhaps I’m naive. It’s an interesting thing for me as an American, as you say, wrapping our head around a system different from what we’ve just lived with from birth is tough to do.

And with the example of taking a portion of your earnings and stowing it away for a rainy day healthcare disaster is encouraged through what some private insurance offers in the form of a “Health Savings Account” where money from your pay can be taken out tax free and protected to be used on healthcare needs. But it’s kind of like saving for retirement — at the end of the day we humans aren’t particularly good at planning for the future. It’s why we also have a very dysfunctional federally funded “Social Security” program that takes out money from your earnings automatically to be redistributed to you for retirement. Problem is, the government isn’t any more responsible with the Social security funds than the citizens are and so they have mismanaged those funds to the point that they run a deficit and so while I pay into SS each month, I’ll probably never see that money by the time I’m retirement age.

So a question for the UK crowd, just out of curiosity — you mention that NHS doesn’t cover every medical procedure or every medicine you might want, only what you need; what are some examples of things you have to pay for yourself? I would assume things like cosmetic procedures and removing non-cancerous things, like you said. What about elective surgery for arthritic joints like a knee or hip, or back injections for back pain, or chiropractic treatments for pain, or tubal ligation or vasectomy for birth control, or weight loss surgery for morbid obesity, etc. I think some Americans fear we may lose access to some things that the government may deem unnecessary but that we or our doctors think is necessary. (Our insurance companies already do this to us, however)

@Th3solution Honestly the only things I don’t think are covered are cosmetic surgery, everyday chiropractic therapy and podiatry and dentistry. A lot of people pay for physiotherapy too since there are quite long waiting lists. Also as I’ve already mentioned, prescription drugs are free up in Scotland but the rest of the UK pay a fee. We really are lucky.

@Th3solution apparently:

“The NHS does not normally pay for treatments or operations where:

-they are not clinically effective or their effectiveness has yet to be determined

-they are restricted in number due to capacity and resource constraints

-only certain people will benefit from treatments or operation

-offer little health gain”

You do sometimes hear about how people have swung treatments like breast enhancements because they have psychological problems as a result of them being so small, so things like that are sometimes case by case. You normally don’t get white crowns for your back teeth under NHS prices but if you pleaded and said without white crowns you would be depressed, you may get it. I know someone who had a wart on her face (only small) and the doctor said she’d need to pay to have it removed as it was a vanity issue. A few months later she went to another doctor regarding her depression, and she mentioned the wart and they got it removed for free - likely because they thought it might help with her confidence. But I can’t think of anything that you’d really need that you might get turned down for, so it’s a great security blanket.

I think providing certain meds are one area, because they might be so expensive and the large scale benefit might not be there even if a few people really need it. But if the proof is there NHS will pay big money for such treatments.