Topic: Are We About to Move into the Next Generation of Consoles?

I've not seen or heard this mentioned elsewhere, but over the next year are we not technically moving into a new generation of consoles? With the big three all releasing new hardware with greater capabilities it is hard not to think of it as moving on a generation, except that both Sony and Microsoft are marketing their new devices in such a way that they are denying this. It is obvious they wouldn't want us to think of the new consoles as the next gen since it would bring to light how short this gen was, but what has traditionally been the mark of a new generation? I would say it has been when a new console releases that performs better than the old one.

I know the main argument against it being a new generation has been both iterations of the console will run the same games, but it is likely that future console releases will use the same architecture and so games will be playable on older systems with cut down visuals. I would also point out that idevices like the iPad have generations yet older versions still run the same games. I myself have been guilty of using terms like 'mid gen refresh', but thinking about it it is just smoke and mirrors advertising. After all a rose by any other name is still a rose...

So what do you all think?

No, we're not — particularly not in PlayStation Nation.

no, the focus of the ps4 pro and scorpio is mostly on 4K - even MS seem to be talking of the scorpio roughly in the same terms as ps4 pro, though if it does offer 6Tflops gpu, it'll get closer to native 4K resolutions and less reliant on checkerboarding/upscaling that PS4 pro utilises. but other than shinier graphics, i can't see either offering that much in the way of anything new, and certainly not a huge leap in capability from the base models. the basic CPUs are the same, slightly faster, but still the same crappy CPUs. PS5 and XB2 will need to offer substantial upgrades for a next generation, possibly even 4K/60fps as standard, especially if we're going to get 4K/30fps this gen. i think this mid-gen (though a bit pointless in my opinion) is a technological stop-gap til the capabilities of a proper next gen leap are available at console costs. 4K/60fps is prohibitively expensive on PC currently.

the only one moving to their next system is Nintendo, both Sony and Microsoft are still on the same gen it's just they brought out better, more powerful versions of their systems,

think of them as a stop gap in order to increase the lifetime of the system (and the way it went i pretty sure that's all the Wii U was, just another version of the Wii to fill the gap for the Switch)

@Dichotomy: The Nintendo Switch is I guess Nintendo's next generation of console although it could also be more of an amalgamation between console and mobile rather than the generational 'leap'. In terms of gaming, its difficult to assess if this is truly a generational leap or more of a 'catch-up' to the current era. Of course if it can match the PS4/XB1 era games then from a 'mobile' gaming perspective, its next gen - the ability to play current generation games on such a small form factor and mobile platform is of course impressive and taking mobile games to the next level.

The PS4 Pro though really isn't next generation at all. Its at best a half-way step between generations but its also locked to the '4th' generation of Sony's consoles. Its not resetting the life-cycle for example and not getting next generation games that can't run on last gen. By that I mean its not going to outlast the PS4 by getting supported for a few more years - its effectively releasing 3years into this generation and when Sony do opt to release their 5th gen console, it too will be 'replaced' at the same time as the PS4. The N64 Expansion Pack for example didn't make that console jump to the next generation and the Pro is similar.

MS's Scorpio seems a bit of a mix between the Pro and a next gen console. MS are saying they want to do away with 'generations' in their consoles and moving more towards a PC style system. Whilst you may buy next gen GPU's etc they don't leave the old games behind and in some cases actually run these at the 'next' gen levels - depending on how they were built of course. Unlike the Pro though, the Scorpio will offer unique software and feature that will not be available at all to XB1 users. Its these new and unique (to Xbox) that leaves the old console behind. VR itself may not be a generational leap for PS but it certainly is for Xbox. Games like Rise of the Tomb Raider, CoD:IW for example have additional VR support and these features are not limited to Pro users but would be limited to Scorpio users. VR games will be released as Scorpio Only . Its not hard to imagine that this would also extend to non-VR games too. I can see Xbox games releasing with Scorpio recommended or even required - initially maybe for certain features. I can see MS ensuring its main first party games run on both XB1 and Scorpio. I can't see MS releasing a much more 'powerful' console 4years into the life cycle and then locking it down to their 3rd Generation. I can't see them releasing XB2 (for example) a year after Scorpio because the XB1 (at 5years old) hasn't got the power to run games when they can just release on Scorpio or tell developers they can't release a game unless they release a very poor XB1 version. MS are being quite careful on the language used but I would be very surprised if this isn't the next 'gen' Xbox although like I said, MS are trying to do away with 'generations' in their console space and the Scorpio also has one foot in the 'past' with its backwards compatibility and should offer a similar upgrade to a lot of games that the PS4 Pro will but it will also new and unique experiences too.

The entire concept of console generations doesn't really apply anymore. I mean, look at the Nintendo Switch, that system defies what a home console or handheld is. The same applies to console generations. I think we will see new consoles, but things may not be as lined up and predictable as before. Sony will probably push for a PS5 in a couple of years. However, Microsoft may push for another iteration of the Xbox One. Or something completely different altogether. Who knows?

No...we have at least another 3 years before Sony or Microsoft even announce something else coming out. It's still young for the PS4, as most of their IP's haven't even really released yet and they're still adding more to the system, and with VR just coming out, they've got a few more years. Nintendo is the only one starting early and technically, when the Switch becomes 5 years old (the typical life span of nintendo consoles), when they get going on their next system, that will probably be the same time frame that Sony and Microsoft will be releasing their next ones.

If Sony or Microsoft announced a new console, fans would become disappointed and you wouldn't see strong sales, as people invested too much into the consoles already. I'll be getting the next nintendo console, but I won't invest in another one by Sony right away (in another 2-3 years, yeah, but not right away).

@get2sammyb: Fair enough, but what exactly makes the Pro not a next generation console, other than Sony not advertising it that way?

No.

Hopefully we get a better cpu and then the next generation can start proper.

@Dichotomy: you can play all the PRO games on the normal ps4, because it is the same console - and there won't be PRO-exclusive games, so it's really the same generation, just 2 different models of the same console.

@Feena: I know this, but I also expect a certain amount of cross compatibility from now on with the architecture consoles are using. If the next Playstation comes out in three years, but the Pro is still supported, would it still not be a new generation of console? As I said in my OP we have something similar with the iPad, when the iPad 3 came out the iPad 2 still ran everything, but in that case it was considered a new generation of iPad. It might be a slightly different way of making new generations of consoles, but that doesn't make the Pro anything less than the PS4 was to the PS3.

@Dichotomy: Cerny talked about that in a new Eurogamer article actually:

"What becomes clear is that Sony itself - perhaps unlike its rival - does not believe that the concept of the console hardware generation is over. Cerny has a number of criteria he believes amounts to a reset in gaming power: primarily, a new CPU architecture and vastly increased memory allocation. And of course, a massive revision in GPU power - Cerny refers to a 434 page, eight-hour PowerPoint presentation he gave to developers about the PS4 graphics core. It was a new paradigm for game makers.

"By all of these criteria, PS4 Pro is not a new generation of hardware and there are no 400 page briefings. Sony's new console is an extension to the existing model - the means by which games for the existing PS4 can be optimised to look great on the new range of 4K display hardware, while at the same time offering an enhanced experience for owners of existing HDTVs. It's the same generation - and that's most telling in the actual effort developers will need to put into developing Pro software."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-...

If we were to use iPads as an example - although that is a poor example in reality as they rarely offer a significantly 'new' experience, some software or something that the previous cannot offer - it would be equivalent to apple bringing out an iPad 3+ (plus) an enhanced but ultimately the same generation as the iPad 3.

A better example would be seen more in the Car world. Its like Ford launching a 7th generation Ford Escort and then a few years later bringing out an RS or Cosworth version. The RS/Cosworth would have upgraded suspension, brakes and of course a lot more horse-power under the hood but it would still be 7th Gen Escort even though its performance is better than the standard version.

All the Pro is offering is an 'enhanced' PS4 experience. Its not offering anything 'new' - Its not running software that you won't get on the PS4, it won't have any exclusive additional content in games, no exclusive DLC, Nothing you can't get on the PS4 as all it offers is an enhanced PS4 experience. I know that often when a new generation launches, we often get a lot of very similar experiences. A lot of games release on both generations and all we see is often just visual differences. However we also see other games that offer a 'unique' to that generation experience. Battlefield 4 for example offered 32vs32 on this gen - something last gen can't offer. Arguably some games may seem to be capable of running on last gen but for whatever reason don't but the point is each generation offers something 'new', the Pro essentially is just enhancing but not offering 'new'.

@Dichotomy: I really see a number of differences, but let's say I'll consider this generation over for Sony when the newly released games are no longer running on ps4 (standard or pro). Backward compatibility is the opposite of that. I too expect ps5 to be backwards compatible with four since they are using a more pc-like configuration.

@Feena: Actually that's not entirely true. Mark Cerny has said in a recent interview that it could be a while before a pro only game is made, if ever. There are no 'official' rules on what publishers can and cant do with the tech just informal dialogue.

I actually think it would be terrible business from most of the publishers to spend a fortune on pro specific blockbusters though so I think we are pretty safe.

Here's that interview

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/20/13350476/sony-ps4-pro-mark...

Everyone should give this a read, although I've got the wording wrong in my comment above, he has stated that ps4 pro only games could happen.

I think that's worth baring in mind, especially when we have all been led to believe that it definitely wont happen :/ Here's the chief architect saying it could.....

@themcnoisy: Actually that was not what Mark Cerny said!

Sony says it doesn’t want games released solely for the PS4 Pro
When asked whether Sony would ever let a game run exclusively on the PS4 Pro, Cerny was blunt. "We’re putting a very high premium on not splitting the user base in that fashion," he said.
That doesn’t rule out the possibility that, two or even three years down the line, a game comes out that relies so heavily on the hardware improvements of the Pro that it becomes unplayable on the standard PS4. Cerny wouldn’t really speak much to that scenario, saying that Sony is asking developers to take advantage of the new console without leaving older hardware behind.

The bit that says "That doesn’t rule out the possibility that, two or even three years down the line, a game comes out that relies so heavily on the hardware improvements of the Pro that it becomes unplayable on the standard PS4." is the author of the article, Nick Statt and 'the Verge' speculating on a hypothetical situation that Cerny wouldn't enter into a dialogue about and not Mark Cerny's comments!

If the analysts are correct and as I believe, by the time that situation arises, Sony will have released its next generation console and that 'Hypothetical' game would be released for that console and not released on the PS4 Pro. Even though the Pro could probably run it, because the game won''t run to an adequate standard on PS4 it won't be released to that generational hardware.

Cerny is not going to say 'by the time gaming reaches that level' we will have a new generation console' and therefore avoided

I think you misread the article!

@get2sammyb: Firstly I'd say it was in Sony's interests to not talk about the Pro as a next gen product so soon after the release of the PS4, so it is no shock to me that they would want to distance themselves from that label. As I said, smoke and mirrors

I guess I personally see a jump in capability as what has defined a new generation of consoles. The Pro is probably as big a step up from the PS4 as the PS4 was to the PS3 (if we are being completely fair, the PS4 was not the powerhouse we may have hoped for). Perhaps I should see it as more of the beginning of Sony and Microsoft distancing themselves from the idea of generations, the PC doesn't have definable generations and if you have a machine from the past 6 or so years it is likely you can run pretty much any new game which I assume will be the aim for the PS4. It is an unusual situation, hence why I thought it was worth a forum topic. I literally only started musing over the matter when I was thinking about if the Switch constituted the start of a new generation.

@BAMozzy: The way static technology, and specifically consoles, is marketed generation-wise has always been by capability, whereas cars are just marketed by model, with variations of power being given at increasing price points. So, for me, an iPad is a better analogy than a car (although I admit it isn't a great one, but it was only there to make a basic point). So, to word it slightly differently, why is the PS4 counted as a new generation over the PS3, but the Pro isn't? I know the general point is going to be that the PS4 plays all the games the Pro does, but that doesn't work for two reasons. Firstly the Pro has better versions - it can run them in 4K and should also improve on performance at 1080p, if we pretended that the PS3 got all the games the PS4 got (it does get some) we would have a system running the same games, but a fidelity loss, but we consider the PS4 next gen. The second point would be that the Pro has the potential to run games the PS4 couldn't, I'm not saying it will happen, but I also wouldn't rule it out. If the Pro did release have a game on it you couldn't play on the PS4 would you consider it next gen then?

@Feena: I expect, come the release of the PS5 or whatever it will be called, for the Pro to continue to be supported in the same way the PS4 will with the Pro - the same games with cut down graphical options over its bigger brother. I also expect the PS4 will be phased out at this point. This makes sense since it will leave Sony with a user base from the Pro while it sells its new console to whoever wants/needs to upgrade and will offer a market place with two machines, a cheaper weaker one and a more expensive powerful one. So my question was basically to ask, if this happens, does that make the PS5 next gen, even though it is only doing what the Pro did to the PS4 (and the Pro will still be a supported console)?

@Dichotomy: The PS4 also launched with its own exclusives and new features that PS3 owners didn't have - games like Knack and Killzone: Shadowfall, Touchpad and speaker on the controller etc. You also couldn't put a PS3 version of Battlefield 4 into the console and get the enhance graphics ans 32vs32 either - you had to buy the 'next gen' version.

The Pro technically could have software that won't run well on the PS4 because of the extra power similar to how certain N64 games required the Expansion Pack but Sony it seems are unwilling to let that happen. The expansion pack though didn't make the N64 'next' gen.

Its not just about the software though - its a good indication of what separates a generation but its more down to the architecture inside. The PS4 Pro is essentially using the same architecture - instead of using 1 PS4 GPU, it has 2 that work in tandem to enhance games. It has the same architecture CPU - just clocked a bit faster and the same RAM - just with a slight increase to bandwidth. Developers don't need to make/port 2 versions of the game - 1 for PS4 and 1 for PS4 Pro. The enhanced version takes minimal effort from developers to implement.

Whilst the PS3 may run many of the same games the PS4 does at less visually impressive resolutions, it needs developers to port the game to this system and as stated PS3 games can't run on a PS4 despite the fact the PS4 us powerful enough to run them. This is because of the different architecture. You won't go into a shop and be met with the option to buy Horizon ZD (for example) on PS4 OR PS4 Pro - there is JUST the PS4 version but if you have a Pro it will be enhanced - much like Turok 2 on the N64 and Expansion Pack.

From a simplified viewpoint, new generations may just offer an improved gaming experience and often tat translates to better resolutions and frame rates but next generation consoles also tend to have next generational hardware throughout. Its predominantly this that determines 'next' gen hardware.

I fully expect the PS5 to come out with next generational hardware inside - including the CPU. I doubt very much that the Scorpio will be using the same core architecture as the XB1. The Jaguar CPU is pushed to its limit in the Pro at 2.1ghz but I still think that its a 'weak' point and can't see MS using this. Its expected that the GPU will be based on AMD's Vega too with 12GB much higher GDDR5 RAM. To me this is next generational hardware - whether MS want to market it that way or not is up to them. Of course the information on the actual hardware is still vague but it has the hallmarks of what a 'next' generation console would be in essence.

Theoretically its possible that a game could release that runs on PS4 Pro only - in a similar way to Zelda: Majoras Mask that needed the N64 Expansion Pack or Games with fewer features like Perfect Dark. Sony though has said they don't want this to happen. The game should still be recognised and in most cases still load-up and 'play' to a degree as the coding is the same. I and analysts tend to agree, that by the time gaming reaches this level, Sony will have released its next generation hardware. The dilemma for Sony would be whether or not to allow a PS4 Pro version or tell developers that they can only release the game on PS5.

@Dichotomy: most are saying no, and for good reason. Everything points to this being just a performance upgrade, kind of like how the jump pack in the 64 was able to be upgraded for certain games to play as the developer intended (Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark come to mind).

But I'm not willing to give a definitive answer. Imo, this is something that can only be answered in retrospect. Right now, everything points to no. But if in the future we start to see games that can only be played on the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, and that either struggle to run on the vanilla versions or aren't even playable on those versions, then yes. This is the next gen. It won't be PS1 to PS2 type of change, but closer to Gameboy to Gameboy color gen change (and yes, GB to GBC was a gen change).

I hope this doesn't end up being the case, but Sony and MS will do what they want.