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Topic: A Grumpy Old Gamer's Thoughts on Trophies/Achievements

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Dichotomy

So, I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while now, my general apathy for trophies, maybe even a dislike of them. I've read people having most of the same thoughts as me before, but never as one post or that fleshed out. On a basic level, for me, they add nothing to a game - if you're playing a game to just get trophies for doing something in a manner you would never have done yourself, then gaming is likely becoming a chore just for a trophy. They prey upon everybody's innate level of OCD to drag out a game in the same way a microtransaction based mobile game would.

I remember the system being introduced initially to Xbox and being hailed as a massive feature. The thing about that is that games before that point had had achievements, but they were tied to the game rather than being on an account level. They also were usually for difficult feats and rewarded you with art, extras or cheats. Putting them at an account level means most games no longer have anything other than a pop up and a few points added to your account for doing them. I once even had a conversation with someone who wouldn't play Valkyria Chronicles because it didn't offer trophies. Even after pointing out the game itself did have them, just not at account level they still wouldn't touch it despite being interested in the game itself.

Another thing that gets me is they mean nothing, especially collectively at an account level. In general I'm told it is just another variant on high scores, but is it? On a grand scale if you are level 10 in trophies and someone else is level 20, does that tell us who is the better gamer (given there are entire topics based on what platinum trophies are easiest to get I'd have to say no)? Or give much of any information? Not really, which is the reason why a standard comparison with high scores and trophies is completely flawed. On closer inspection trophies don't stand up much either - you get a trophy for dying in Dark Souls 2 for instance, which means that a truly great player would never platinum that game. Most other trophies are just mundane (defeat boss X) or filler (walk for x distance is a standard). I got a platinum for just playing through The Walking Dead which seems pretty pointless to me.

Filler trophies are just terrible too, one that sticks out in my mind was from Darksiders - a 'ride so far' one with people advising you should just use an elastic band on your controller and leave it for a couple of hours. It isn't unique though, it was just the first time I'd come across this and really hammered home the fact I'd never chase trophies.

So why even bother talking about them when I could just ignore them and let others enjoy them in peace? Well my last point would be that trophies are probably used for judging how streamlined a game could be made. Only 5% of people decided to play a game as a pacifist? Don't worry about putting that in the next game. Only 10% of people went off the beaten track to find side quests? Strip that back in future. Of course there are a couple of counter points (sort of), one is that, if you trust the company developing a game, they could use the data to improve what people avoided (I don't have much faith in this). The other thing is, to borrow from theoretical physics, we have a sort of Heisenberg's uncertainty principal going on. That is by using trophies to observe what people do in itself changes the outcome as people try to obtain those trophies (I know, butchering quantum mechanics to loosely tie it in with my post). So the data is not accurate anyway, but it should at least give a rough idea. One last thing, I wonder if the Wii U would have done better with its own account based achievement system? Did any one here use that as even part of the reason to not get one?

Anyway, does anyone else have any thoughts on trophies on this rainy Monday afternoon (for me at least)? Hope you're all having a good day

Dichotomy

usb

The only reason that I can see for a trophy is for the developer to push you to play the game more and therefore the gamer will think it provides better value. Trophies hold little value to me it does not make me want to play a game more. Generally I play through a game once and thats it. If the games has multiple endings like Mass Effect then I will play through the game more times. Or RPG's where I can play as different races/classes I will again play through multiple times to see how the game plays differently. But trophies have no impact on how or why I play the game. It would be nice to have the option to turn off trophies.

usb

PSN: noodledreamz

crippyd

I quite enjoy getting the little pop up when I get an Achievement (sorry I don't have a PS) and I have found that I'll try and play the game so I can get more of them if it's not too much of a chore. I don't normally bother with the MP based ones unless some of my buddies are also doing the same thing as I don't like playing with randoms. I know the score beside my game tag means absolutely nothing to anyone else but me but I like seeing a big number there!

crippyd

Drawfull

Totally agree and there's a good PlayStation Access video on this (or rather, on stupidly-hard bronze trophies) that from what I recall were almost all padding.

That said some games get it right - FFX Remaster, for one. If you play the game as you normally would, max your characters including weapons and armour and defeat all the game's bosses, you plat the title. I don't think that that is unreasonable, no matter how unfair or difficult the mini games associated with a couple of those is.

Drawfull

PSN: slamdunkfunkk

Rudy_Manchego

I used to ignore the trophies or achievements on games but over the last few months, I've started to chase trophies more and more. I do quite like the sense of acheivement in some of them and getting a platinum on some games.

Though for me, it is a personal thing and I don't think it reflects on the ability of a gamer or is comparable to anything. I know some people do but then some people start fights at their kids football matches if they lose.

I say some games, because it is spot on that some trophies or some trophy lists are just ridiculous. For me, good trophies challenge me to explore, play the game differently, use different weaponry, get better at the game or test endurance. They shouldn't be huuuge chores. I have done some grinding tasks to get platinums but only if I like the game and the rest of the trophies are worthwhile. If I don't like the game or the trophy list is ridiculous, I will collect what I would on a normal playthrough and that is that.

I also find trophies are a hook for me to revist a game - like if I look and see I've completed a percentage on an old game and I long for a replay, I may go in to get the trophies. I did something similar on Shadow of Mordor - after finishing the campaign, I went back and played in the open world. A bunch of the trophies needed an hour or two of playing to set up the scenario to get them but it was really fun.

So to me, it is something I personally enjoy on games that have rewarding trophy lists but I don't buy games or play games based on them. I certainly don't think it means anything skill wise.

I also do wish that gamers would review trophy stats and amend them and gameplay based on users experience. If people can't be bothered to destroy 1 million propoganda posters then leave them out next time or give them something more rewarding to do. Lastly, MP trophies suck on games that are not predominately mp. They are pointless on games where the MP has a shelf life of 1-2 years and I don't like having to grind with other players just to get them.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

PSN: Rudy_Manchego | Twitter:

Tasuki

I know I have answered this question at least several times before and it still hasn't changed.

I am fine with trophies as long as a game developer doesn't use it as padding for a game. I hate it when they say this game is 60 hours long for example but the story is 20 and the rest of the time is trophy hunting that to me is b.s.

However I know some people see it as a good thing for various reasons like adding another challenge to the game, adding value to the game, bragging rights etc. and for them that's great. Me on the other hand I could care less.

If I happen to get one while I am playing great, if not then great as well. For me a game is finished when I finish the storyline (if it's a story based game) or when I am ready to move on (for a multiplayer game for example). I don't care if I get all the trophies if I did my backlog would even get bigger. Besides some of the trophies I feel are just rediculous.

RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

kyleforrester87

I used to not care about trophies, then a couple of years ago I noticed how close I was to another friend of mine on my friends list, so started competing with him for the next year or so. Around that time we spoke and he was also aware how close I was to him, and it turns out he'd been competing against me also haha.

I don't care about them much, but they definitely add to a game that you're already enjoying. For example it's a great reason to have a few more play throughs of FF7, even though it's a great game, it's fun to have a new aspect of the game to focus on.

So yeah, I can take em or leave em, but happy for them to stay.

kyleforrester87

PSN: WigSplitter1987

FullbringIchigo

Tasuki wrote:

I am fine with trophies as long as a game developer doesn't use it as padding for a game.

my thoughts exactly

"I pity you. You just don't get it at all...there's not a thing I don't cherish!"

"Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!

Number09

Good Afternoon/Morning/Evening Dichotomy It is rainy here too.

Do you know I Honestly do not Know why they are there let alone what they do I am a Gamer and in all Honesty I can do without movie and music as part of the package this new generation offers Netflix and what not for payment.

I just wish they put all their effort into Gaming .

Number09

roe

I've started to see the appeal in them a bit more recently but I still never really aim for them. Some are ridiculous and while I like the idea of 100%ing games, some just seem to be taking the piss a little.

That said, they can add many more hours of gameplay/frustration to gamers that want that extra challenge or perhaps don't have the money to buy many games so that's cool.

I do wish there was some way to hide unwanted ones though. Can't believe that's still not an option.

roe

WanderingBullet

Attack On Titan is the third Koei Tecmo game I've played and the one thing I noticed they love to do is to include trophies that requires you to collect every or majority of the gears and weapons in the game.

Huntin' monsters erryday.

Hego

Personally I like them and I'm by no means a trophy hunter. I always finding it rewarding to see a trophy pop for doing a mission or something challenging in a game, I've never had the problem of them breaking my immersion in a game like others do so I guess that help. I find them a cool reminder that I've achieved something in a game. They're also a handy way of tracking what other people play, for how long and if they enjoyed it (not always but most of the time I feel if someone has a high percentage of trophies in a game it means they enjoyed it). Obviously trophies bring they're own problems of comparisons, game padding and addiction too I guess but on the whole I like them.

Hego

PSN: Duke-of-Styria

Dichotomy

I see a lot of people saying they add a challenge/extra play time or the like to a game, but a lot of games had that built in well before trophies were a thing. For instance Resident Evil rewarded you with a rocket launcher if you speed ran the game with minimal saving and things like that were relatively common. Despite getting something fun as a reward I'd bet money on the fact more people chase trophies that give nothing more than that than they did these bonus features.

It seems odd people would chase trophies given for ways they normally wouldn't play too, if it was something they would enjoy I would have thought they'd have returned to the game to play it that way with or without a trophy. So I don't think trophies extend a games life any more than a microtransaction mobile game does - it might keep you playing, but in the worst possible way.

If you beat a boss in a game, especially one that you have to beat to advance the game, surely the satisfaction of beating the boss is the reward, rather than a picture of a trophy popping up to tell you you just beat that boss? It seems you get a trophy for one of two reasons - to tell you you've done something you was going to do anyway or because you played the game to get that trophy rather than it being an offshoot of playing the game to enjoy it.

When I saw how successful they became early on for Microsoft I thought that it was a great marketing ploy, tie a score to your account to encourage brand loyalty. After the 2013 E3 and the number of people who moved over to Sony I at least feel they aren't that important to a lot of people, but I also still feel they don't add anything meaningful to the gameplay experience.

Edited on by Dichotomy

Dichotomy

Kidfried

I'm mostly going to skip over replying to the first part of your post, as it is your right of course to dislike trophies and therefore not chase them.

I don't care about convincing you or something, but I want to voice my opinion on one point you made. To me trophies are in the same league of bragging rights as high scores. I never heard anyone care about anyone's 'level' and that's not what trophies are about either. More interesting to me is checking if my friends have accomplished certain difficult trophies. The Benevolent Leader trophy in Fallout 4, a no-death run in Unravel or the New Game + in Bastion. As a social element it is a great way to see what friends of you have achieved in a game. And I can take enjoyment in trying to earn a trophy my friends couldn't.

It provides me some extra enjoyment to the game. And that doesn't instantly mean I'm obsessed by them.

Second, the "streamlining" of games. Now I am not going to argue that developers never look at their own trophy lists to see what might work or not work, but the argument is not going anywhere really. It's pure speculation and I reckon developers now pretty darn well they shouldn't base their next game around a trophy list. If you could name one clear example of such, be my guest, but I don't see trophies having a negative impact on core gameplay.

Kidfried

DerMeister

I completely understand why someone would dislike trophies and achievements, and you do have some valid points. However, my thoughts are the same as they always have been.

Despite my 11 Platinum trophies, I'm not a serious trophy hunter, and I don't need trophies to coerce me to play a game. I view it as a bonus, just something extra to do if you want. It's harmless, something that's just there. The game isn't ruined by it being there or not.

The idea of cheevo addiction is kinda silly to me, as is playing easy games for them (Everyone seemed to play Avatar Burning Earth for easy points), or playing bad games or games you don't like for them (is anyone really proud of a Hannah Montana platinum?). Those 11 Platinum trophies I mentioned are from games I enjoyed playing, games I'd play even without trophies. If I'm gunning for a plat, I'm certainly not playing games I dislike, regardless of trophy difficulty.

Online grinding trophies are also something I dislike, due to the time sink as well as online being challenging in general (the aptly named Seriously? achievements in Gears of War are a good example), as well grinding trophies that rely on luck instead of skill (Hardcore Risette Fan in Persona 4 Golden).

Despite it's potential faults, trophies do help give a sense of achievement. I may not be one of those people, but it is a popular thing for a reason. People like feel rewarded, after all. Some think achievements and trophies do that.

"We don't get to choose how we start in this life. Real 'greatness' is what you do with the hand you're dealt." -Victor Sullivan
"Building the future and keeping the past alive are one and the same thing." -Solid Snake

PSN: HeartBreakJake95

Fight_Teza_Fight

The way I see it a trophy list is basically a check list from the developer of things to do in the game. If I like the game and there are no online trophies, I will go ahead and platinum that game.
Trophies if done right also allow for more replayability and in general extends a games lifetime.

I'm going to answer this the same way that I look at the PS4 Pro.
Some people want it, some people don't care for it, so why not provide the choice? It's not going to make your gameplay experience any worse for it.
It's not like Sony are giving out free games to anyone that reaches Level x by date z.

Lives, Lived, Will Live.
Dies, Died, Will Die.
If we could perceive time for what it really was,
What reason would Grammar Professors have to get out of bed?- Robert & Rosalind Lutece

Dichotomy

@Kidfried: The Benevolent Leader trophy in Fallout 4 doesn't require skill to get, just boring grinding and is exactly the type of trophy that highlights one of the problems with trophies. For whatever it matters it is one of only two trophies I didn't pick up in Fallout 4 iir, all the others I picked up because they turned up naturally as I played (the other one I didn't get was the max happiness companion one as I prefer to play stealthy solo). I don't chase them because they have no point and the ones I got I would have done the same things whether they were there or not. As for high scores, that is a much purer way of comparing ability at a game if that's what you care about. If the game doesn't have scores but a competitive element, then playing each other is the way you determine who is better. If it has neither of those things then there will be no solid metric at measuring who is better at a game.

I would be shocked if a previous title's trophy data isn't analysed by market research when making a game, it is an in-depth breakdown of how people played their games without them having to ask to record your gameplay data anymore. As I said, it would be skewed by the fact it exists in the first place, but with millions of players' data at your fingertips you would have to be mad not to use it.

@DerMeister: I have five platinums, all of which I got because I played the game the way I wanted and not the trophy list. As I said in my original post I mainly feel a sense of apathy towards them, the dislike bit I explained was because I don't like the idea of this data used to inform companies what could potentially be left out (plus I'm not big on my personal gaming data being there for anyone to use without any proper consent). For the most part though they are just something I don't really see the attraction of, which is obviously there as virtually every platform has them now.

@Fight_Tera_Fight: Hypothetically if you enjoyed Darksiders would you still platinum it knowing one of the trophies is basically put an elastic band on your controller and leave it for 3 hours? Or do you only get the trophies for ways you would enjoy playing the game whether trophies were there or not? I also have answers for why to not make a Pro and have posted a few of them in articles on here, but I think that is a topic for a different day

Dichotomy

Mergatro1d

I've just commented on the Tomb Raider article about my dislike of trophies, so seeing this article is fuel to my ire!

Whilst I'll never knock someone for getting enjoyment out of earning trophies, they just do nothing for me; in fact they often wind me up. What I hate the most is when you deal a final blow to a boss and a notification immediately pops up- before you've had a chance to register the victory for yourself or be treated to a satisfying death animation or a cut scene, there it is taking you out of the game by highlighting some arbitrary tick list the developer has deemed necessary to lay out in front of you. It makes that moment in the game feel so anticlimactic, like you've been robbed of the satisfaction of defeating the boss. Well, it does for me, anyway.

Mergatro1d

PSN: mergatro1d

Dichotomy

@Mergatro1d: Under Settings-Notifications you can disable the trophy pop ups. Hope that helps

Dichotomy

dellyrascal

I don't mind trophies, especially those that may encourage you to explore a little more, although those that say walk for so long or play for so long, are there for the sake of it half the time. If its a decently constructed one, I don't mind a little movement off the beaten track.

I do see where the OP is coming from though and to an extent I think that comes from a certain mindset or age group. Trophies and originally for me (Achievements) are now seen as a way of c**k waving to other gamers / friends. I have a few that are all about the trophy hunt and thus Sony are happy to oblige rinsing wallets. Having grown up with Cassettes and Cartridges, its never ingrained itself on me, like it has for some others.

In the social age we are in these days, whats better than telling someone you beat a game on hard or whatever, than a trophy, screenshot or video and proving it too. Not that i particularly care, but there are a lot of players that like a bit of self-congratulatory praise and I say let them crack on to be honest...

I stood there chattering in excitement, like a necrophile at a bus crash....

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