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Topic: PlayStation 5 --OT--

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NecuVise

@kyleforrester87 I don't keep two consoles, I'm just going to sell the current one and use that money to lower the price of the next one. And what if my console indeed dies in that time period, I'm just going to buy another one besides the next gen? No, thanks.

NecuVise

BAMozzy

@kyleforrester87 Totally agree!!!

I will buy a PS5 regardless of whether it has BC or not because I want to play the exclusive games that Sony will offer on PS5. I can play all y PS4 library on my PS4 Pro. If the PS5 is the 'best' console on the market, it will end up being my main console for all new games - not just exclusives - like the PS4 was which also doesn't offer BC.

I still have my XB360 to play any of my XB360 library - inc all the digital games. Not all of my 360 games are BC. Regardless of whether the next Xbox offers full, partial or no BC, I will still buy it for the 'NEW' games and keep my XB1X too.

I am less inclined to buy 'either' console if they don't come with a disc drive more than whether or not they have BC. Digital libraries are still no guarantee you will be able to re-download games and play them in the future - especially when licences etc run out. That's less likely with Sony's own games but can still happen. The best way to ensure you library remains playable is to keep hold of the console they were released on and make sure you have your library downloaded too. Discs are still a better/safer bet!

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

kyleforrester87

@NecuVise so if you don't keep your old consoles, and you are gunna get the next Xbox because PS5 isn't BC, you'll lose acces to all your PS4 games anyway since you'll be getting rid of your PS4. May as well just get a PS5, backwards comparability or not, by that logic.

Anyway, the best solution if BC is not included is to just keep hold of your old machine, at least for a year to play any of the interesting final PS4 releases. It's fine having 2 machines, I have a Switch and PS4 after all. Bonus - if one breaks, you still have the other.

Edited on by kyleforrester87

kyleforrester87

PSN: WigSplitter1987

NecuVise

@kyleforrester87 I have many games on Xbox too, in fact even more than for ps4 but I'm leaning towards ps5. I just think that BC is essential in today's digital reality. Sony would screw themselves hard if they don't include BC, because then, just as you said, you can buy whatever you want as you're starting from a blank point with no games attached. I don't know why I even argue on this when BC is one of the reasons why they delayed ps5 to 2020 in the first place and it will be a reality.

NecuVise

Octane

What's a used PS4 worth these days? They're selling new ones with a game for €199. So it can't be more than €100, and don't think that price will be any higher one or two years from now. It's not more than the price of two new games, so I don't think it'll make a huge difference.

NecuVise wrote:

I don't know why I even argue on this when BC is one of the reasons why they delayed ps5 to 2020 in the first place and it will be a reality.

Err... source? Your uncle at Nintendo doesn't count!

Octane

Vegetto

Ryzen (confirmed) + probably NAVI (Forbes' sources claiming that AMD is building the Navi chip exclusively for Sony)
15GB RRAM or NRAM (rumors suggest the PS5 will use 3D stacked RAM)
2TB and high-end cloud storage
Vapor chamber cooler
You need at least 8 teraflops to reach true 4K with a decent frame rate and frame pacing, meaning that Sony may be aiming for that value

That's my guesses basing on what I've seen recently.

Consoles: PS4 PRO, PS3, PsVita, PSP and Switch.
PC: Ryzen 7 2700X - VEGA 64 - 32GB 3200 MHZ - PRIME X370-A.

Tasuki

@NecuVise So you buy an next gen console to play last gen games on??

That's just stupid. The reason people buy the new consoles is to play new games. I bought a PS4 to play PS4 games I didn't say hmmmm I wanta PS4 to play PS3 games on. Don't get me wrong it would be a nice feature but is not necessary and shouldn't be the main reason to by a new gen console. That would be like me saying well I bought this nice HDTV but I want to be able to watch my shows in SD and if I can't I am not going to upgrade.

If you want to play PS4 games just keep the PS4 instead of trading it in for a PS5. I mean if you aren't going to play PS4 then yeah trade it in. Its why I never trade consoles in, if I get the urge to play a Dreamcast game I got my DC. I want to play a PS3 game I got my PS3. As mainly people claim BC is not a necessity when it comes to a new console.

RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.

My Backlog

PSN: Tasuki3711

NecuVise

@Octane at this point, insiders are our only source, don't know what you expect, official Sony confirmation?

@Vegetto that would be too custom and too underpowered so I highly doubt those specs. They go for standard RAM, maybe sshd and around 12 tflops of power. They aren't going to release 8tf next gen console if one X is already at 6 tf.

@Tasuki different strokes for different folks. You can keep whatever you want, good for you, I prefer BC. If playing games from previous gen was so stupid as you say it we wouldn't have so many remaster, ps now back catalogue of PS3 games, ps2 games on psn etc. And I have never said BC is the main reason to buy a new console.

NecuVise

NecuVise

@Kidfried what else could they put in consoles? That's the current gen of amd procesors, so there are no reasonable choices except for Ryzen.

NecuVise

Octane

@NecuVise That's what "confirmed" means. Those are just rumours.

Octane

Vegetto

@NecuVise actually, 7 teraflops would make a huge difference, even when compared to 6 teraflops, the PRO/X limiter is the CPU. We need more CPU power, 8.5 teraflops would be more than enough when combined with a good CPU, and that's where Ryzen shines since AMD created the best architecture, which luckily is not so expensive to produce or adapt. Microsoft didn't make money selling the X for $500, so you need a good balance between final price x profit. I wouldn't bet on SSHD since we'd be getting low storage again in exchange for speed, unlike SSD, SSHD technology showed no reasonable drop in prices/production. Xbox One X uses the vapor chamber cooling, so we should expect the same since air cooling is less efficient.

@Kidfried a principal programmer at Sony who works with the Advanced Technology Group is working with AMD's Ryzen technology. The programmer has been making additions tot he LLVM github over the last several weeks related to the "znver1" architecture, which is the code name for AMD's first generation Ryzen processors. LinkedIn also shows that the same person is involved in compiler development for PlayStation hardware.

Consoles: PS4 PRO, PS3, PsVita, PSP and Switch.
PC: Ryzen 7 2700X - VEGA 64 - 32GB 3200 MHZ - PRIME X370-A.

Vegetto

@NecuVise 100% agreed. If people don't like old games it's fine, but but being against it... What a proud gentleman. I can't even play BO2, BF3, MW2, MW3 on the PS3/PC without finding hackers every 2 minutes.

Consoles: PS4 PRO, PS3, PsVita, PSP and Switch.
PC: Ryzen 7 2700X - VEGA 64 - 32GB 3200 MHZ - PRIME X370-A.

NecuVise

@Vegetto I just think those specs are too close to one X to be a new gen, it rather looks like ps4 pro 2 I'm hoping for something more powerful, even though it's not such a big priority, as I'm satisfied with graphics as they are now, and I hope for big advances in AI and physics which these procesors could give us.

Regarding BC, sometimes it feels people want to have LESS features and options on their consoles, not more. No wonder iPhone is so popular

@Octane and where did I wrote that it's confirmed? You want something to be confirmed when even the very existence of playstation 5 is not confirmed.

NecuVise

Octane

@NecuVise

NecuVise wrote:

I don't know why I even argue on this when BC is one of the reasons why they delayed ps5 to 2020 in the first place and it will be a reality.

We don't know any of this. They're rumours at most, but nothing is set in stone as of now. To be fair, we actually don't know anything at all regarding the PS5. The only reasonable assumption is that it's coming at some point in the future.

Octane

BAMozzy

NecuVise wrote:

If playing games from previous gen was so stupid as you say it we wouldn't have so many remaster, ps now back catalogue of PS3 games, ps2 games on psn etc. And I have never said BC is the main reason to buy a new console.

That's a good enough reason for Sony NOT to offer BC. Sony can charge subscriptions for PSNow, to re-buy old games on PSN and charge up to full price for a 'port' with a change to its output resolution and maybe a visual setting or two and call it a remaster.

If you think a game like God of War or Uncharted 4 via BC will suddenly be native 4k and 60fps, you are mistaken because those games have fixed settings which will remain 'fixed'. At most, you may get some benefits like faster loading.

BC is going to be more of an issue for the PS5 because of the Pro. There are 3 different configurations (Pro, boost mode and standard PS4) - at least 2 that Sony would have to emulate/build-in. Sony I guess could just emulate the standard PS4 because ALL games work on a PS4 (although emulation isn't perfect) but the Pro has to revert to a PS4 to run the non-pro enhanced games - boost mode doesn't work with every game either. If they do go the PS4 (not Pro route), then a lot of games will be 'worse' on a PS5 - if they go just the Pro spec route, only the Pro enhanced games could work.

Sony know that people will buy a PS5 regardless of BC because they will want to play their 'new' exclusives and the new games at the best possible quality on console - especially if they offer 60fps as a minimum. The PS4 itself is not able to offer a locked 30fps in a LOT of games - even with Dynamic resolutions that drop down below 1080p. In other words, you aren't getting games that 'are' 1080/30, but more like 1000/28 if you take their average resolution/frame rate. People will want to upgrade to play the new releases at 60fps (even if they don't have 4k TV's yet) rather than a game that's 800-1080p, 20-30fps with screen tear and/or frame pacing issues...

The PS4 does not offer BC yet continues to sell more consoles every month than consoles that do. It is Sony's fastest selling console - maybe not their biggest selling but this is still only 5yrs old and no doubt will still be selling for years after the PS5 releases too. Point is, Sony doesn't 'need' to have BC, especially if they put all their money into making the PS5 for next gen only and not add BC costs that either add to the overall price or take away from the overall specs to hit a certain price point. Everyone with a PS4 library has a PS4 to play those games on.

Sony can continue to make money with remasters, PSN sales and PSNow subscriptions too if they don't add BC so its in their interest not too. They know that people will want to play their Exclusives - especially if they continue to make Game of the Year contenders - and so will sell consoles regardless. If you are willing to forego Sony's new exclusives just because the PS5 isn't BC, then obviously you couldn't care less about playing those games...

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

Rudy_Manchego

@BAMozzy You are kind of right but I do think you are omitting the size of digital libraries that people have invested in. Each generation, all bets are off really, loyalty only gets you so far. You can be riding the crest of the wave but fluff it up and you end up paying the price.

As a consumer, having had so many remasters for the PS4 am not buying Uncharted, The Last of Us etc. again. I also don't want to lose my massive library of digital games, which, like it or not, has really boomed this generation.

If I, as the consumer, have a choice ahead of me - Xbox or PS but PS will let me keep my digital library from the last gen and play them, naturally my first choice might be PS. Especially since launches always take some time for a great library of games to appear. I'm already invested in the eco system. If I still need to keep my PS4 to play that library and Xbox offers a compelling package the decisions removes one key loyalty element and I might jump ship. Or I might by an XB first then invest in a PS5 down the line.

People won't buy a console for BC en masse but it adds to the pros of a console.

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

https://jambags.co.uk

PSN: Rudy_Manchego | Twitter:

Octane

@Rudy_Manchego Physical games carrying over is easier than digital I think. If you're offering the games digitally as well, Sony needs to sort out licensing and rights for all those games all over again. If the PS5 happens to run PS4 discs, they don't have to, those games have already been sold.

Octane

Rudy_Manchego

@Octane Only if offered for sale again - not necessarily if they fall within your existing library. You can re-download your steam library if you get a new PC can't you?

Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot

https://jambags.co.uk

PSN: Rudy_Manchego | Twitter:

BAMozzy

@Rudy_Manchego Whether you buy digital or physical, you still have access to ALL your games by keeping your PS4 - regardless of what happens with BC. Sony know that 'remasters' are lucrative as both ND remasters (Last of Us and Nathan Drake Collection) are amongst the 'best' selling exclusives on PS4. Unless Spider-Man or God of War have overtaken them now, Last of Us sits as the 2nd best selling exclusive (behind Uncharted 4) and Nathan Drake was 3rd - to reiterate unless GoW or SM has overtaken them now. Either way, they sit amongst the best selling exclusives this generation.

Sony could easily sell remasters of Last of Us 2 at Native 4k and 60fps. That is no different from the Last of Us which went from 720 to 1080p, 30 to 60fps - obviously a bigger jump from PS4 but from Pro, that would be a similar jump up. BC could scupper their sales dramatically - all for maybe a few 'earlier' console sales because of BC which doesn't make that much profit per unit.

Whether you have an extensive digital library or not, to guarantee they are 'playable', you still need to ensure they are downloaded as they could be removed at anytime due to licensing issues. You should still have a PS4 to play them on too. You aren't 'losing' access just because the PS5 doesn't have BC (if it doesn't) and can still play them all on your PS4 regardless. There is no guarantee that any/all games will be licensed to run on a PS5 - Sony 1st party exclusives games maybe but not every game. Activision could decide that Destiny and CoD won't be BC on PS5 if they want because they want you to buy the 'newer' version, the PS5 specific versions. EA could do the same with its Fifa franchise and Battlefront/field games too. If these all run, look better and offer some additional benefits (like BF4 did with its 32vs32), it may not work properly in MP or even be compatible - Destiny at 30fps on PS4, maybe 60+fps on PS5. Then you also have potential problems with Save data too - PS4 saves affecting PS5 version saves of games with the same titles. Its not just the games that have launched, but the games that will launch on both generations. Unless devs are willing to 'optimise' for 3 different hardware specs and just release the game as 'Playstation' without the 4 or 5 so its more like an iterative upgrade but games that can't run on PS4 have PS5 on the box, then things get complicated.

Thing is, PS5 doesn't have to be limited to 30 or 60fps either and can offer upto 4k/120fps or even 8k/60fps with HDMI 2.1 and VRR also means it can target 40fps or 50fps if they wanted too and the game will run well because the both the TV and game are in sync. It could give massive advantages to players over PS4/Pro and people won't want to buy MP games if they are in the same lobbies or play BC versions if they are locked to 30fps like Destiny is. Battlefield may have a 30-40% advantage on Pro (let alone the visual advantage on long distance enemies) but playing a game at 40-45fps on PS4 vs someone potentially playing at 4k/100fps with VRR enabled and the advantage that has on input lag too is really not going to be fun.

Whilst that doesn't matter for Sony's Exclusives as they are predominantly Single player experiences, you still have the issues with BC Specs. If they just emulate or build in a PS4 Pro spec, then only games that are pro enhanced will work and if they just build in or emulate a PS4 spec, you just get the PS4 visuals and performance - meaning games like H:ZD, GoW, etc look 'worse' and games like RDR2 perform worse too. Emulating a PS4 Pro, including the switch to PS4 specs for non-enhanced games is much more complicated. Building in a PS4 Pro is expensive - money they could spend on the GPU, CPU and/or RAM - may also add to the cooling costs too as they would need to cool the Pro APU as well so you may need a cooling block and a fan for that as well. Not only that, it also makes the console bigger and heavier so requires more material and incurs more shipping/distribution costs. Bigger boxes mean fewer consoles per crate so more crates needed. Software solutions, like emulation, are not guaranteed to run 'every' game as well as they do on hardware let alone the complications involved if they try to emulate a Pro with the switching to PS4 or non-enhanced games. Boost mode itself doesn't work with 'every' non-pro enhanced game either so if they do go the emulation route - like Xbox, then chances are your entire PS4 library won't all be playable at launch either. Sony would also need a special team in place to check every game and its 'digital' content - not just DLC packs but all the MTX's etc, obtain permissions from devs/publishers etc before they can pass them as 'safe' to run on the PS5 without affecting the PS5 software, hardware and peoples saves - like MS have to do.

Buying Digital, regardless of BC is always a risk for long term gaming. If you don't have it downloaded and up to date, at any time the publishers can pull it from PSN/MS store and you will lose it. If the games meant that much for long term play, then you should have bought them physically and keep the console they were designed to run on - just like you have to do with PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, Nintendo consoles etc etc. You opted to buy Digital for convenience in the short term but that doesn't mean Sony have to add BC. You bought those games for PS4 - a console with a 'limited' life span as technology moves on - and those games work on PS4. If you want to keep them beyond PS4, download them and if you need more storage, buy external HDD's to keep them on. Sony are NOT obliged to offer BC just because more people are buying Digital. They bought these for the PS4 and so that's all they need to 'work' on - just like Physical too. It doesn't say PS4, PS5, PS6 etc on the box - it says PS4.

If Sony do offer any form of BC, partial or full, PS4 or Pro, then look at is a bonus feature but if not, you still have your PS4 to play your entire PS4 library!

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

PSN: TaimeDowne

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