Topic: PS4 Slim Rumour

@Tasuki: The jump from XOne to Scorpio is a lot bigger though. If NEO is a new generation, that would be quite the disappointment.

We'll see though, it depends on how they market the two systems; but to me it sounds like they're going to market them as two ''brothers'', two systems that accompany each other in the same ecosystem. I think they'll get a lot of flak if we start seeing exclusives by next year.

Maybe I just like to think that Sony and MS will actually be reasonable and support the vanilla consoles for at least another 2-3 years before we'll start seeing exclusives for the NEO and Scorpio. That means the vanilla consoles had their 5-6 year lifespan, which should be enough. I like the idea of console iterations; as long as they don't turn it into 3-year console generations, cause there lies a big difference.

@Octane: I think what they are aiming for are generationless consoles, i.e. consoles more like PCS. Where you just upgrade a graphics card here, a bit more ram there. In doing that it make sense to have the variety of systems, i.e. lowend PCS, midgrade, highend. By doing so it would eliminate the problems of backwards compatibility, remasters etc.

I honestly hope it doesn't come to this cause I like the simplicity of consoles over PCs. I have no idea when it comes to graphic cards amount of ram etc. etc. If I did have that knowledge I would be a PC gamer not a console.

That being said if this is the future of consoles, it looks like PS4 will be the last console I buy.

@Octane: The way I see it is that MS are trying to make their Consoles have the 'benefits' of PC's. By that I mean that every 3-4 years, an upgraded console will be released that still plays your entire games library - in some cases even better with Higher Resolution and/or Frame Rates - just like buying a new GPU in essence. If you game on PC, buying a new GPU or PC doesn't mean you have to start your whole games library again - like you have to do with pretty much every other console. Its kind of like having Backwards Compatibility built in but also the benefits of an iterative console (improvement to games) and a new console too. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the same 'game setting options' we see on PC - where we can set the resolution, the quality of the visuals etc on Xbox. Games will soon be released as just Xbox games - although on the back we may see 'recommended Scorpio'. MS have already confirmed that games etc are already in development for the Scorpio and the Scorpio will also be the ONLY Xbox console to offer VR games. Therefore everything on the Xbox One will run and all peripherals work on the Scorpio but not all things for the Scorpio will work on XB1. I know that in some ways this can be 'disappointing' for the 'traditional' console gamer. Knowing that every 3-4yrs something better will come along. For some though it can also be a good thing - knowing that as soon as you 'upgrade', your whole library comes with you - no need to wait for enough games to release to make it worth while or spend £400 on a console and another £100+ on a few games to actually play on it. I know MS say that no-one gets left behind with the release of Scorpio but I can't see it being 'just' a 4K XB1 either. I can see no games, no peripherals being left behind as they will all be playable on Scorpio but some XB1 gamers won't be able to play 'some' games/experiences because they will be Scorpio only.

I see Sony though sticking to the more traditional format. The Neo is nothing more than a PS4 and part of the PS4 lifecycle. It's not going to have games released specifically for it - just enhance the games that the base PS4 can play. I don't see a time when Sony will release PS4 Neo 2 (another upgraded/iterative PS4) and/or we see 'Neo' only games. By the time games are running that bad on PS4 that it makes no sense to release or buy a game on the base PS4, PS5 (or whatever Sony want to call it) will be out. This, like Sony's other 'next gen' consoles will have its unique versions. It will have PS5 on the Disc boxes. Publishers will release 2 versions of games (where they can) - a PS5 version and a PS4 version - the PS4 version will have 'Neo' settings in it anyway. In many ways the Neo has just prolonged the PS4 generation - far more than a Slim. If/when games continually struggle to 'perform' at certain levels on PS4 and/or we see a decline in 'visual' standards (ie games that maybe were 1080/30 now being released as 900/30 and 900/60 dropping to 720/60) or VR experiences maybe not being as in depth or as smooth, people will automatically start to think the generation is coming to its end. Even when both the PS4 and XB1 released, I struggled to see both lasting 5yrs - even after both Sony and MS released more processing power/RAM to developers within the first year. The Neo though could see them stretch it out this generation but it is still limited and restricted by the base PS4 and what that can run. I still can't see Sony 'happily' missing out on some feature or even game because the base PS4 can't offer it so Sony will release a PS5 to offer that to Sony gamers, the slightly scaled back version to PS4 gamers whilst MS will have the Scorpio to offer these.

When developers optimise a game for Console, they tweak a bunch of settings (just like PC gamers have access too) until they have the game running at what they consider acceptable. Things like the output resolution, the quality of the shadows, the reflections etc etc. These are 'fixed' on console because all consoles are 'normally' the same specs. PC gamers have access to these settings because there are so many different specs of PC's and therefore the PC gamers have to 'optimise' their games themselves. All the Neo is doing is allowing 'developers' to tweak those settings at bit higher. If you put a game into the drive of a PS4, the settings are defined as Output to 1080p, shadow low, reflections medium etc etc for example and if you put the same game into a 'Neo', the settings are defined as output to 1440p, shadow med, reflections high etc etc. As virtually all games are made in 4k (for PC's), developers don't crop out all that 'extra' work on console, they use the game engine settings to scale it down. All that 4K info, better lighting etc is still in the game - which is why many 'Old' games on PS4 'can' have a Neo mode patched in. It may not be worth it for some games if they are not being played anymore and some games were built at 1080/60 anyway so not going to see any benefits of 'Neo' but even a game like 'Thief' or 'BF4' could get a Neo patch to boost resolution/performance. (I picked Thief because its old, and know a 4k PC version exists) but doubt Dice would because they want you to play BF1 and Thief probably not because no-one plays it.

@Tasuki: Excuse the crude Paint drawing, but I think an image explains it better than I could do in words;

The way I see it (and the way I think it can be a good thing) is when the console manufacturers keep supporting the ''old'' models for at least 3 more years. Every block represents a console's lifespan. In the past only one console was supported at the time, the ''current gen'' console [see red line as an example]. However if they start releasing consoles at an interval of three years [see new model], but keep supporting the older models for three more years as well, then we'd have two supported consoles at any given time. So I imagine that the vanilla PS4 will be phased out in 2019 and that Sony will introduce a console that's even more powerful than the NEO. Basically what you could see as a PS5, but one that just like NEO is completely backwards compatible. The NEO will become the lower-end model and the new console will be the high-end model. I also imagine that the vanilla PS4 may still get some support, the games that can still run on that system, but that the rule of ''no exclusives'' will move from NEO to the newer console. In that case the NEO will be supported for at least another 3 years. That also means that you still can adhere to a regular timeframe of buying a new console every 6 years without having to worry about exclusives or anything like that.

@BAMozzy: I think you just described a similar thing but for Microsoft (see my response to Tasuki). To be honest, I can't really comment on what will happen, because I don't really know. I just think that as long as they can find a way to fully support each console for at least 5 years, that it can be a good thing. The problem with your idea of what MS is going to do is that some gamers will be left out after 3-4 years when they introduce a new console, because it may have some new exclusive stuff. Even though the older consoles will still be supported more than, say, the 360 has when the Xbox One released. I understand that it can still feel as if MS forcing people to upgrade every 3-4 years instead of 5. Of course, that is a completely plausible situation, but at this point I'm just giving the console manufacturers the benefit of the doubt and I'm trying to see how they can turn this into something better than we have today. It can go both ways I think, and I'm just glad that there's at least two companies doing that, because if there wasn't any competition, I'm not sure if things would've gone the same way. It's a good thing that they keep each other in check.

@Octane: In the past, the PS1 for example, didn't immediately become obsolete the second the PS2 released. As I mentioned in a previous post, Sony released 'slim' and 'super-slim' versions of the previous gen console during the 'current' generations life. The PS2 for example only ceased production in 2012 - a year before the PS4 generation started. Sony have traditionally supported the 'old' generation long after the 'new' gen comes out. Even now in the PS4 generation, the PS3 is still supported. I see this generation being NO different. I don't think the vanilla PS4 though has the power to last 10yrs and continue to deliver the latest games - but it could still deliver a gaming experience into the PS5's generation. There are still a lot of people that are happy with their PS3's, still not 'upgraded' to PS4.

I can see Sony releasing a PS5 in 2 maybe 3years BUT that doesn't mean the PS4 will immediately cease. There is always a cross-over phase! The PS4 would be 5years old in 2years time and we already know that at 3yrs, its showing its age as far as gaming is concerned - some games struggling to run at 1080/30 consistently Fallout 4's DLC had to have its 'Fog' removed to hit 30fps more consistently - Witcher 3 struggled to maintain 30fps too - games like Doom also implement Dynamic resolution to try and keep frame rates more consistently - but games are now more like 'up to' 1080/30 (or 60) instead of being 1080/30. Developers are making more and more scaling back of their games just to get them running - even with the Neo, developers will need to scale back their games to run.

As I said I can still see Sony releasing a PS5 in a few years, not that will signify the end of the PS4 but because a 'few' games and/or features will not run well enough on PS4 but the majority of games for the first year or 2 will also come out on PS4. Games like CoD and Destiny, until this year' have ran on last gen - the PS3 is nearly a decade old now.

The PS2 ran from 2000 to 2012/13 (it was discontinued worldwide in Jan 2013 10/11 months before the PS4 released. PS3 released in Nov 2006 and if they discontinued in Nov 2016 that's 10 years after it launched. The PS4 launched in Nov 2013.

Sonys model is more like:

As you can see its much more staggered than than 1 following directly after the next as in your first diagram

There is a very good reason behind what Sony is doing, and that basically boiled down to money. Last generation both Microsoft & Sony PS3 & Xbox360 lost $8 billion between them, hence the XboxOne & PS4. They know casual gamers will not pay a lot of money for a console this was proven last generation, but they also known hardcore gamers will pay more for a console. Simple make two consoles one for the casual market & one for the hardcore market, all while not breaking the bank hence off the shelf PC parts. Sony is taking the safer route & I don't blame them, but Microsoft on the other hand is taking a bit of a gamble with the Scorpio as that thing will not come cheap.

@BAMozzy: I know, I know; but I don't think that was what I meant. Sure the PS3 still gets some support, but you can't play Uncharted 4 on the PS3 or The Last Guardian. That's what I meant; full support for two systems at any given time. One is the budget console and the other is the premium console. After six years, the budget console won't receive full support anymore (like the case is with the PS3 currently); that would be around 2019 for the PS4; the NEO will become the budget model and we'll get a new revision that will take the place of NEO in the market. Of course assuming that they'll go that route instead of a PS5; this is just an example. So every block represents full support in that case.

@Octane: You are looking at consoles as they are now, generational at least thats what it seems like when I read what you post. It seems like the industry is moving away from that where you will have low end consoles and high end ones. All games will play on them just at different settings like PCs. PS4 will be the lowend and Neo will be the high end.

@Tasuki: No, I'm not thinking in generations; but even if PS4 is the last true console we get from Sony and only iterations follow, then there has to be a point where the current PS4 can't handle the games anymore. So if they release a new iteration every 3 years and support at least the latest two models at any given time, then the situation is still comparable to the current situation and that means that people aren't forced to upgrade every 3 years because they would be missing out on features (apart from graphics of course).

@Octane: Ok I get what your saying sorry if I misunderstood ya. If that's the case then yeah I see your point, but then that would just be like people with a low end PC.

@Octane: Sure that when a new console comes, some games are kept purely to launch and sell the new generation hardware. Generally though 90% of the games are also released on last generation consoles. Historically, the new generation has always launched with 'new, exclusive' games to sell the system. In a lot of cases, those exclusive 'next' gen games could be scaled back to work on last gen but as time goes on, more and more games would need too much scaling back, too many cuts or changes etc that the game wouldn't be the same anymore.

The PS4 and PS4 Neo are still going to be all part of the 4th generation Playstation family. Whether its a Slim, a Neo or a day 1 console. Games releasing will ALL have PS4 on the box (so to speak). All the Neo will do is give a boost to a games performance. I know its possible that 'some' future game could run in the Neo but not the vanilla PS4 but by that time Sony will have released the the PS5 and that game will release on that.

The Neo though, at least according to Sony, will not be getting any 'exclusive' software. I guess we could see the '3DS' situation occur in the future where the base PS4 struggles to run a game at 'playable' levels but Sony are saying that we won't have a Situation like the N64 where some games required the Expansion Pack to run or open up all the features. Sony have said that there will not be any 'Neo' only releases. I can see a situation in the future where a game should run on the Neo but not on the PS4 so NOT releasing on this 'generation'. It could be 'annoying' for some with a Neo, knowing that their console could run a game but because its limited/restricted by the 'inferior' hardware of the base PS4, it won't get the software/features etc. The Neo is an iterative PS4 but I don't think Sony will release another iterative console into the 4th generation - I believe the next console will be a 'new' generation and we will see the traditional pattern we have seen from Sony - one that gradually phases out the old gen (in this case the PS4 generation inc Neo) and focusses more and more on the next gen.

MS are moving towards the more overlapping model you showed above. Games will be just 'Xbox' but on the back you will see 'Scorpio recommended' or minimum required - more like a PC. MS are the ones phasing out generational hardware. They are the ones who are moving more into the PC type structure where you can upgrade your hardware every 3-4 years to keep playing games at their 'best'. The upside of this though is that all your Xbox games will be playable on all future consoles - Not in some 'emulator' like XB1's XB360 BC games or like PS3's PS2 hardware that was built into it but like PC games. You can still play a 10+yr old PC game on the the most up to date PC. What MS want to do is make it so you can play games like Gears of War, the Witcher 2 or 3, Sunset Overdrive etc etc 10+ years into the future, long after the XB1 has passed its life. I think this generation of Sony games are only going to be playable through PSNow or via a 'Remastered for 'x' generation' - games like Infamous or Horizon: ZD for example will only be playable on the PS4 console if you own the Disc and 10yrs+, if you want to replay, you will need to buy a remaster or subscribe to Sony's streaming if you no longer own a PS4 console.

Its possible that in 10yrs time of course, Sony could have moved to a similar system to MS. I think that will depend on how successful MS are with this and whether Sony feels they need to copy. Sony often do end up copying certain aspects from other consoles - like all manufacturers do to a degree. However at the moment I see Sony purely on the traditional path. I think if Sony's next console is 'PS5' then I think they will be staying on the traditional path but if its called 'something' (not numbered) then maybe PS4 will be last 'generational' PS console

@BAMozzy: I think we're on the same level, but I used Sony as an example, because as long as the architecture remains the same, they could do the same thing with PS4 like you described what MS is going to do with the Xbox One. I could see it going either way with Sony.

@Octane: Maybe we are on the same wavelength but I don't see it happening this 'generation' for Sony. Having seen the PR disaster that Nintendo had over the 3DS and having such a 'big' install base, it could be a big PR headache for them if they backtrack and release something that is 'exclusive' to the Neo and not available on the PS4 (or even run badly). I know they haven't said a lot about the Neo but what has been said/leaked is that Sony will nott allow this to happen. This is why I am sure we will see a PS5 - whether its called that or not though will depend on where Sony decide to go. If it is called '5', then I think Sony will plan on keeping the traditional structure that I drew. If its 'named' then I think we could see them moving to a similar system to MS.

I know its not normal to see an iterative console but this generation (since 2013) has seen a number of big leaps in technology all within that short time space - all of which dates the console much faster than during a 'normal' lifespan. 4K TV's for example are much more common place and the current gen can't even consistently hit 1080p across every game and a lot that do have issues with frame rates, screen tear, texture pop in etc. We have seen new API's, CPU/GPU technology that in combination work together to get much more performance - AMD's RX480 - a $230 GPU can transform a PC into a 1440p, 5.5+tflop, VR enabled device. VR has also released too which only a few months ago was regarded as requiring a 'high' spec PC to run. Lasts years $1000 Titan can be matched and beaten by a $400 GPU this year. All of this has contributed to the premature ageing and why I believe Sony are bringing out an iterative console.