Topic: Gambling in Gaming

Yesterday, I watched a thought provoking video on the gaming industry and it's use of gambling to further monetise their products. Plenty of youtubers have pointed out the links between the dopamine hit of slot machines and loot boxes, but this one really kind of hit home.

It kind of made me feel a little sick, as I look at all of these Triple A games coming out like Shadow of War and NBA2k18 and these are indeed full priced titles with microtransactions. Even worse, people are expected to buy things before knowing what they are getting (looking at you Overwatch). It's mad and the fact that kids can get in on the gambling action is just darn right wrong. Why aren't games media pointing this out. Why are casinos and online betting apps so heavily monitored, but games aren't. Am I alone in this? I hope that Pushsquare make an article to get ahead of the curve. This will reach the mainstream press at some point, and some stiff questions will be coming the developers way.

@Shellcore Been saying this for years.

I work with some problem gamblers and its basically ruined their lives. The one constant is they start gambling early or grow up in a gambling environment.

Loot boxes are an entree point for kids and its completely wrong.

@Shellcore It is a good video - I am a big fan of the PGG channel and is always worth a watch.

I'm not one of the types to call for everything to be regulated, and gaming gets a bad press but to me, this is 100% gambling and it needs regulation.

Firstly, I don't buy EVER the argument that the major game publishers 'need' the money because games are so expensive to make these days. They are, sure but if you are in doubt, go watch Super Bunnyhops videos on how all major publishers are eveading tax and squirreling away millions upon millions. Their profits are doing pretty well overall because of things like micro transactions and loot boxes.

I hate micro transactions full stop but I get that free to play games exist on them and that is fine if they are fair, you know what you are paying for and you get something real for your money. However, they have no place in full price games. Add in the gambling elements of loot boxes etc. and it is disgusting.

Shadow of War does not need loot boxes (or loot orcs or whatever). It is a primarily single player game, that looks great btw, that now has a gambling element for no other reason than exploit some gamers who love the game and will fall for it.

This is gambling, and you are absolutely right, this is going to be a big scandel. Apart from a few outlets. gaming media just seems to go, hmm well it is what it is or bah just cosmetic, don't worry about it. It clearly isn't just that.

Rant over.

You're not alone, I think about 95% of my posts these days are bemoaning how bad this once exciting industry has got and lootboxes are part of that. It isn't even that I like complaining, it's just the fact the game industry is something I care about and the apathy of the general gaming public is truly baffling to me.

So since I've said a lot on the issue before I'll use this one for some tinfoil hat theorising (although it isn't going to be that crazy). Games' media are not going to make too much of a fuss about this as they are now mostly dependent on the game industry to survive. Look at Bethesda's recent statement that they will withhold review code so everyone can experience their games at the same time (I won't go into the fact that they released code for Skyrim a month early to selected Youtubers who always rave about their products). I mean it is utter nonsense that anyone can see through, but it also shows that Bethesda are saying they will not lose anything by making this move, reviews can only hurt their sales. That is how bad pre-order culture and hype over substance has got.

Add to this that a lot of revenue on gaming sites is, naturally, from gaming companies and you have to ask how much is a review company willing to tick off the people who pay the bills? If you think it doesn't cause issues then you should look at the Gamespot journalist who got sacked over his low score for Kane and Lynch (I forget his name, but he went on to found giant bomb iir). So in light of that I think I make a decent, if somewhat sketchy on evidence the side, case for gaming sites generally ignoring these issues.

As for government bodies, well we have already had a huge uproar and look into this issue on mobile gaming, but nothing came of it and it has mostly been forgotten. Since I'm in my tinfoil hat though I'd guess there are some palms being greased to make the issue go away for as long as most the public stay silent.

I'll finish on a positive note though, in the brown dirge of all this there is still one game out there that actually did microtransactions and didn't take the proverbial. That game is Path of Exile, a free to play game on the PC that you can happily play for no investment and funds itself solely on its players buying cosmetic items. It has run for four years on that model and shows how you can make a profitable game without screwing over your players.

I hate loot boxes and any kind of game transaction that is not paying to get something I choose. I mean if I want to pay to get Geese in Tekken 7 it's not like I need to be lucky or I could get another character instead...very dangerous kind of thing.

It is indeed sad but it's the way games are becoming. People have to remember gaming is a business. Companies and developers make money to pay their employees so their employees can feed their familes. Once a person buys a game for $60 that is it the company does not receive any more money from that individual for that game. Loot Boxes and such insures that the companies are getting an income from that game even after the initial purchase.

It's kinds like when you buy a radio or DVD player from a store and they offer you a warrenty and whatever other addons it's because they know after that initial purchase you aren't going to be getting any more from you.

I wouldn't say it's gambling no one is forcing anyone to buy the lootboxes or DLC. You just have to show moderation that's all. If an individual blows their entire paycheck on loot boxes well that's their bad not the companies. People need to show more self responsibility instead of blaming other things.

Not gonna lie, I kind of like loot boxes and the whole sticker pack thing — at least in concept. Opening up a reward chest and seeing what's insane is fun, and done correctly, it can make a good game into something very addictive.

It's just a shame, then, that so many games turn such a system into something nefarious by injecting microtransactions into it. So many cool loot mechanics have been ruined over the years by greedy companies.

@Tasuki i agree with that BUT there is also the flip side when they make it virtually impossible to get certain items, some of them important items needed to progress without dropping loads of money into lock boxes (this is mainly on the mobile side of gaming)

there needs to be some sort of way to allow the companies to make money but still make it enjoyable and safe for players, so they don't have to drop hundreds of pounds to get what they need

@Tasuki Yeah, I sometimes feel a twinge of guilt when I buy my games pre-owned, so the developer sees none of my money.
... Suddenly I feel a deep sense of responsibility for contributing to the epidemic of microtransactions, preplanned DLC, and loot boxes. They are probably a reaction to the pressure to maintain cash flow when games start to resell and be recycled over and over.

@Tasuki The definition of gamble is "take risky action in the hope of a desired result." or "play games of chance for money; bet." which is exactly what lootboxes are, people putting money down in the hopes of getting an item they want. Also are you really trying to imply that without microtransactions that games would not make money? That people will starve without that extra income from someone opening a lootbox? Maybe they should run it as a campaign, "buy a lootbox, feed a starving developer"...

I am quite aware that businesses are there to make money, the unfortunate thing that people seem to forget is they only make money off things like lootboxes if people accept them and the customer also has a say in what a company can get away with. If people revolted at these practices you could be sure future games would avoid using microtransactions like the plague. And you know what? They would still make a healthy profit from selling the actual game without all the added junk.

The funny thing is that the only way I'll buy a game that I know has microtransactions in is preowned with a hefty discount, whereas a game that doesn't cheapen the experience by asking for more money after my initial purchase I'll buy new.

@Tasuki "I wouldn't say it's gambling no one is forcing anyone to buy the lootboxes or DLC. You just have to show moderation that's all. If an individual blows their entire paycheck on loot boxes well that's their bad not the companies."

Its not Williams Hills problem if Joe Bloggs put their families financial security at risk by placing the months wages on the 4:10 at chepstow either.

But there are safegaurds in place for problem gamblers. Microtransactions are a major issue. The people who waste crazy money on microtransactions are jeopardizing putting food on their own table.

For you and I, we can give or take them. No biggie, move on. Other people get a huge dopamine hit from the flashing lights, the risk element and that big win. They cant move on and the gaming publishers are pushing gambling onto our kids.

@Tasuki First of all, I do respect that you gave your honest opinion. There are a few points I feel need a bit more discussion.

First of all, you mention that developers need more money. They get the initial purchase price and that is all (traditionally). Well, what about movies, vacuum cleaners, tvs...that's business. If the numbers don't work, the business isn't viable. My washing machine doesn't ask me to risk £1.99 to either get a fast spin or a eco wash. It does what I want, when I want it to do it.

Secondly, to brush this off as being up to the consumer to be "responsible". I'm sorry, but that response just doesn't wash any more. Nobody is forced to gamble, and we see numerous warnings to tell us to stop when it isn't fun anymore (like you said, do it in moderation). My point is that gambling sites are exclusively for adults, but gaming is not. Loot boxes literally ask you to gamble money in the hope you might get something you want (just like gambling). Of course, in an ideal world, we should all be sensible and not spend all our salary on them. However, with that viewpoint, you are either being flippant or extremely callous. Open your eyes and try to see the seriousness of the situation. People have real issues and children should not be exposed to this and be conditioned to see this as being "normal".

@ShogunRok To be honest, so do I. That's the problem. Something that certainly wasn't missed by certain developers. Many fun things come with an element of risk. That's pretty much the definition of gambling.

Natural selection. Do what you gotta do. Help yourself or don't. If kids are buying them, parents should get involved. Couldn't give a damn. Next!

@kyleforrester87 So because it doesn't effect you, all is well? I don't understand your viewpoint. What about people susceptible to gambling?

@Shellcore Pretty much, I'm afraid. I could go into detail but.. I'm sympathetic, I hope people who have a problem take steps to help themselves, I'll leave it at that.

@Shellcore How many times have you bought a product like a vacuum clearner or a washing machine and you have been asked "Do you want to purchase the 3 year warrenty?" It's the same thing when it comes to loot boxes. Your analogy of having to pay for fast spin is off as you don't need to buy loot boxes at all to experience the full game.

Take Overwatch for example. I have been playing since launch and I have never bought a loot box. I still get them by playing the game. I have the same chance as someone who buys them. Having Mercy's Witch outfit doesn't give me an edge over someone who doesn't.

My next point is for @themcnoisy as well.

Game companies should have a safe guard and children should not be exposed. That's fine and dandy but why should game companies be in charge of that? Since when did they become parents to the children of the world? It's a parents responsibility to educate and see to it that there children are taught right from wrong not the game companies.

I didn't let my son play GTA, CoD or any game along those lines till I knew he was ready and I made sure of it. That's what a parent does.

This day and age everyone wants everything to parent their child but them. Yes it's a thankless job, yes maybe you weren't ready, but no where is it a company's responsibility to make sure your child doesn't grow up to be a dumb***.

Yes I will admit my views might seem callous or heartless but honestly that's is what's wrong with this world today. No one knows self responsibility anymore it's everyone else's fault that they end up the way they do. It's time to pull up your big boy pants and admit you messed up and fix it. It's not the games fault that you spent an entire paycheck on loot boxes. It's not the games fault you don't have a job because you called in to play it. It's no one's fault but your own.

@Tasuki A lot of games do lock content solely behind lootboxes so therefore you do not get the full game without buying them whether you care about that extra content or not. Also, as a counter point to Overwatch, do you still get lootboxes as quickly now as when you started playing the game? If not, ask yourself why you got them quickly to begin with, but their pace has slowed as you've played more. Could it possibly be the initial stage was to raise expectation and get youused to a certain pace of getting these rewards? Maybe to encourage people to pay for some when they stopped getting that fix quite as regularly?

As for your second point, you do know people develop personality disorders through no fault of their own don't you? We are a society that is supposed to care for our weak and vulnerable, not one that is supposed to dismiss scientific evidence of these issues to mock the people who struggle with addictions like this. You maybe should step back and consider that not everyone is lucky enough to have your mental fortitude and maybe show some compasion rather than refering to people with genuine problems as dumb*****. I'll leave it there, but know statement like that make you look like something that you would moderate.

@Tasuki That's fine. My fault for diluting my argument with strange examples haha. The crux of my opinion is that loot boxes shouldn't be in games, because it is gambling. Gambling is age restricted. A lot of games are not. I'm not here to change your mind, so I will leave it there.

My problem is when it seeps into children's games. I'm fine because I keep an eye on what my kids play, so if they come within a sniff of a microtransaction I can just step in and throw the console out of the window. But some parents may not be gamers, this may all be new to them. They might not suspect that this goes on in what is essentially a toy to keep their kids occupied.
To be fair, I've been a gamer for years and even for a world-weary cynic like me, the sheer blatantness of the lootboxes in Skylanders took me by surprise a bit. It left me cold. So what chance has someone who knows nothing about gaming got? The argument that it should be entirely the responsibility of the parents feels a little convenient to me.