Topic: 4k TV Recommendations

@Comrade44 Depends on if you want decent HDR or not? The only LG's that do decent HDR are the OLEDs. I am not sure of the specs of that model but I don't think it even has the wide colour gamut and obviously not as bright as HDR10 is delivered at.

Of course if you just want 4k then you will of course benefit from the higher resolution but you may find HDR disappointing. Its up to you if you want to purchase. It will be an upgrade over 1080p but not 'decent' for HDR.

@Comrade44 I know OLEDs are expensive but those are the only decent HDR TV's that LG currently make. Samsungs KS (2016) range (if you can find one) are very good and offer the 'full HDR'. As these are 2016 models, you may find one cheap and they are also great gaming TV's too. I don't know where you live or your budget so its difficult to recommend something. However, the LG UH60 is more an SDR TV that is compatible with HDR sources. What you will most likely see is a 'brighter' SDR image. Some 4k TV's will at least give you the wider colour gamut and 'some' extra contrast.

One of the 'best' cheaper HDR TV's is the Sony XE90. Its not quite upto the HDR standards but does get close and has the WCG too. Gaming input Lag is decent too.

Well, I've taken the plunge on a new TV which is arriving Monday. I've got myself a Samsung UE65MU7000 and I'm looking forward to getting it in and setting up. Its a step up in size and specs from my Sony 4K 55" so I hope it doesn't dominate my living room too much. It looked great in the shop, just hope it looks as good in my house.
I'll finally be able to take advantage of HDR as my Sony is about 3 year old and was missing some vital specs. @BAMozzy any tips on getting this setup? Will I have to go digging through menus to enable HDR?

@crippyd I would have recommended spending more to get a better HDR experience first and foremost as the MU series isn't that great compared to the 'premium' TV's and isn't classed as a UHD Premium (ie can't deliver the minimum recommended standards for HDR display). That being said, its still a 'decent' TV compared to others in its price bracket and is still an upgrade over SDR quality. I don't want to sound negative but you could find some HDR content doesn't look 'great' - even compared to SDR - Star Trek: Beyond for example will look darker in some scenes than SDR. I class it as more HDR compatible than HDR because it lacks the ability to deliver the specular highlights and colour range that a UHD Premium TV would. That being said, you are still going to get some degree of HDR and that is still more impressive overall than SDR.

First thing to do is to enable HDMI UHD Colour for the port you are connecting any 4k HDR device into. I believe on the 2017 models, this is found in the 'General' settings. In there, you will also find the option to switch on Game mode too. On your Xbox, you should see all the boxes ticked in the visual settings menu and display settings - the ones that say your TV is HDR compatible for example.

All you really need to know is that you need to switch on HDMI UHD colour for ANY 4k/HDR Device - inc SkyQ for example too. Once that is done, your Xbox will be able ti detect that the screen is HDR compatible and all the TV settings will be ticked.

If you have any questions when you get your TV, feel free to ask. If necessary or you want, I can even be on Xbox and we can party up and I can give you advice that way. The most important aspect though is to make sure you have tat HDMI UHD colour turned on for the port that you are connecting your 4k/HDR device too and, in the case of Xbox, switching on Game mode for the low input lag.

@BAMozzy TBH, the price was a factor and also that it won a What Hi-Fi? award for the size of screen swayed me. As far as I'm aware it is UHD Premium spec but not labelled as such as Samsung want to sell the more expensive sets with the UHD badge.
Thanks for the help, I'll be sure to set the HDR to on on the inputs.

@crippyd It definitely isn't a UHD Premium TV. Samsung call it HDR1000 to essentially con buyers into thinking it will reach the 1000nits that UHD Premium specs dictate. It reaches around 580 nits and that's lower than OLEDs which are renown for not being as bright as LCDs. A UHD Premium TV also must have 90% DCI-P3 colour gamut but this has around 85% giving a very mediocre colour volume.

I can understand why What Hifi rates it as one of the best under £1k or 65" under £1.5k because its better than the alternatives in this price bracket. The XE9005 (for example) isn't a UHD Premium TV but has better HDR performance and that's over £1k (55"). The only Samsungs that are UHD Premium are the Q series and the lowest of those, the Q7, is also over £1k (55" and currently ~£1.8k for 65"). The only LG's that are UHD Premium are the OLEDs and OLED panels have different criteria to pass UHD premium specs - saying that, at around 700nits with perfect Blacks, they are brighter with a massive contrast ratio too.

It really isn't anything to do with wanting to sell more expensive sets, its all about their specs and whether or not they meet certain criteria. Samsung want to sell their cheaper sets as they know that's where the mass market will be and that 'HDR' is a buzz word at the moment. Its far easier to sell a 'HDR' TV than a 'HDR compatible' TV. Its not just Samsung but all manufacturers are labelling up their TV's as HDR just as long as they accept a HDR signal and will play the content - even if it means not getting the wider colour gamut or contrast/peak brightness level. Like I said, compared to others in its price range, its decent - has good blacks, a reasonable amount of the wider colour gamut and a reasonable peak brightness but nowhere near enough to be considered UHD Premium and have the minimum required colour volume to deliver HDR10 quality at a minimum standard. Its a bit like buying a 1440p monitor that's listed as 4k because it will play 4k and super sample it down to 1440p so look better than the 1080p you were used to but its still not going to look as good as a true 4k would look.

Like I said, I don't want to sound negative - although I do realise that is a bit. Its still a step up from SDR and should still be a better experience. You cannot (currently) get a 55" UHD Premium TV under £1k and as for 65", you would be looking at £1.8k+ which is not within many peoples price range so I understand that some compromises may need to be made. The MU has decent Input Lag, better performance than 'equivalent' priced/features TV's but it cannot compete with the UHD Premium TV's at all. My KS for example has around 96% of the DCI-P3 gamut and a peak brightness of nearly 1500nits - that's 10% wider colour gamut and a LOT higher peak Brightness meaning that HDR is displayed at much closer to the directors intention - still not able to deliver the full intention and does have to tone map down of course but not to the extent of non-UHD Premium TV's.

Like I said, I know not everyone can afford a UHD Premium TV but not all 'HDR' labelled TV's are anywhere near equal or delivering a 'similar' standard. UHD Premium means a TV can deliver a certain 'minimum' standard - still not necessarily the 'best' standard with least amount of tone-mapping (compressing the image down to fit the TV's maximum capability) but at least a 'minimum' standard. Your TV will at least be an upgrade over SDR and deliver some of the impact that HDR can offer which will be better in most cases than the SDR option. It should still look 'stunning' by comparison and gaming on it, with its low Input Lag should feel great too...

@crippyd having just read through my post again, it seems like I am criticising your choice of TV and want to apologise if it seems that way but I was trying to give you the information as to what dictates a UHD Premium TV from the rest and where that fits in with the MU series - particularly the MU7000 that you are purchasing.

I hope you didn't take it personally but if you did, again I am sorry - that was not my intention in any way. The previous post seemed to indicate that you were expecting to get a UHD Premium quality HDR TV and I was only trying to inform you that if you are expecting that level, you have been misled or miss-sold. Whether that affects your decision or not, I don't know but I would rather be honest and inform you so you have the accurate information.

Once again Sorry if I seemed negative or critical of your new purchase and/or choices you made.

@BAMozzy No harm done man. It is very difficult to get across conversation on the text and I am guilty of wording things badly often. By this I am not implying that you have worded things badly btw.
I'm still looking forward to my new TV and giving it a blast with my One X and watching my couple of 4K Blurays again.

@BAMozzy Got my TV on Monday and it is a monster! The brightness is in another league to my Sony, so if it isn't bright enough for UHD Premium specs I don't think I want that. It is like having a light on in the corner of the room. When we switched it on to do setup I was nearly blinded by it! However, can I hell find the HDR setting. There is something called HDR+, is that it? Does it only become available if the source you are using is HDR compatible? I've looked through the e-manual and can't see anything in there either. I also need to get a THX disc and run through the setup properly and get things like Netflix and Amazon logged in.
All in all, it is a great TV and it is like having the cinema in my living room.

@crippyd Glad you are happy with it. The brightness thing isn't something you fully understand until you see a TV with much brighter capabilities and what that does for HDR. Often very little, in terms of a percentage of the screen, is actually very bright but the contrast between that and other aspects is what makes the difference. Never the less, at the end of the day, as long as you are happy - that's all that matters.

HDR+ is NOT what you need. That mode is nothing but a Pseudo mode for simulating HDR with SDR content. If you want to get an idea of what some films or TV may look lie in HDR, try HDR+ but it not great in my opinion - but then I do prefer to watch content as it was meant to be and it doesn't compare to true HDR either.

What you are looking for is HDMI UHD colour. Its not under the picture settings but under the General settings, External Device Manager and there you should see the HDMI UHD colour as well as the Game mode option. Just make sure you turn HDMI UHD colour on for the port you connect your Xbox too - and any other 4k HDR devices.

@BAMozzy Thanks for the info. I don't think I would have found that in a million years! Does the HDR work with the game mode? I've never used a game mode on my TV before and have not noticed any negative effects while playing. Does it make that much difference?

@crippyd Your TV is a year older than mine and they have moved things like HDMI UHD Colour and Game Mode but I do believe that game mode works the same. When you play a game in HDR, it should detect that and play in HDR BUT (and this is very important) you may have to manually adjust the Picture settings to get the most out of HDR.

When watching Films in 'Movie' mode, if you then watch a HDR movie, it automatically switches to a 'hidden' HDR mode with HDR settings but because there is only 1 Game mode (not SDR and HDR) the TV has nothing to switch to so you have to go into the Game mode settings and 'tweak' them to get the full benefits of HDR.

The 2 main ones are Backlight and Colour Space. The Backlight must be turned up for HDR to get the benefits of the specular highlights and greater contrast and Colour Space needs to be set to deliver the wider colour gamut. If you set the Colour Space to auto, it will automatically switch between Standard and Wide depending on SDR or HDR so no need to adjust anything here - just the backlight up and down according to the content you are playing.

I find Dynamic Contrast and Smart LED (local dimming) can be set to Low for the best results in both SDR and HDR BUT my TV can deliver so much more brightness which may affect Blacks more so the need for these are higher. Not sure if the MU series even has any Local dimming so that may not be an option anyway.

The two most important aspects are Backlight and Colour Space.

Game mode does make quite a difference. If you game in Movie mode for example, the input lag is very high. The difference between pressing a button and actually seeing that action take place on screen. Game mode significantly reduces this by around 1 tenth (0.1s) which may not sound like a lot but that's 3 frames at 30fps and around 6 frames at 60fps. By using game mode, you are no more than a frame behind. When you press a button, that action takes place in the console and that 'frame' is sent to the TV. The longer it takes to process the frames, the longer it takes to show it on screen. Its not just the fact that your actions take longer to register (or at least feel like they register) because of the delay in showing that, but what you are always seeing is around 4 (30fps)- 7 (60fps) frames behind. If an 'enemy' comes into a view and starts shooting you, you can't react or start shooting back until the screen shows that - a tenth of a second later. Add in another couple of tenths of a second to react and press the button - you could be 4/5 tenths (half a second) behind. Its also not easy to aim at characters moving across a screen because you are seeing where they were a few frames ago, not where they currently are.

In a racing game, you learn to adjust to it. You brake and steer earlier because that's where the car appears, not where it is to make the corner. If you then turn on 'Game Mode' and try to drive, you find you are breaking to soon and turning to early. If you are used to game mode and turn it off, you don't break in time (because the car is further down the track than you are seeing) and turning too late. Like I said you can adjust because you get used to the 'delay' pressing the brake when the car appears to you to be further back than it really is. In shooting games, you may get used to leading a target to shoot them - assuming you haven't already been killed. Fast killing games can seem like you were 'dead' before you even saw them because you are 6/7 frames behind and that's all the advantage they needed. It may seem their guns kill quicker tan yours because you are always on lower health by the time you see them and shoot back.

That's what Game mode does. It really makes games feel so much more responsive - like getting into a car with Power steering after driving a lorry without.

@BAMozzy Cheers for the in depth explanation, very helpful as always. I'll give these a demo over the next couple of days while I'm off work.
My TV is a 2017 model, as an FYI. It has both local dimming and dynamic contrast so I'll have a play about.

With ref to the UHD Bluray, I'll be playing that through my One X, will that still pick up the secret HDR settings do you think?

@crippyd I knew the MU was a 2017 model, the M gives it away lol. The M is for year and U stands for UHD. My TV is a KS - K for 2016 and S for SUHD (because of the Quantum Dot that gives UHD Premium quality. I knew the MU has Dynamic Contrast but wasn't 100% sure of the Local Dimming. I know that Samsungs have 'poor' local dimming in tests but that's the same with any 'edge lit' LCD. FALD tend to do better in testing because they have far more 'dimming zones'. I have read a lot of reviews and info on a lot of TV's and can't always accurately recall every aspect about every TV I have investigated LOL.

If you are watching 4K HDR bluray or even 4k HDR streamed content, I would advise turning off game mode. In doing so, you should default to the Movie mode (the most accurate mode, if not just switch to this and it will default back to it in future. In Movie mode, if a HDR source is detected, it will automatically switch to the hidden HDR mode. I believe its 'hidden' so people don't mess with the settings and then when they play HDR, they don't get the best HDR. You can only adjust the Picture settings for HDR content when actually playing HDR content. It only switches though if you are in Movie or Standard. Some people will use Standard for 'daytime' settings and Movie for 'nighttime' so HDR activates in these modes. As I said, if you are watching SDR you can turn on HDR+ to simulate HDR but don't switch it on if you are actually watching HDR.

Other than that, Have fun and enjoy...

@BAMozzy I'd be interested in your thoughts about the HDR capabilities of the PANASONIC TX-40EX600B 40" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR LED TV currently on sale at Currys for £349

@JimbobLink Personally, I wouldn't consider that a HDR TV at all - more a TV that is HDR compatible. Its like buying a 1080p TV that can accept a 4k signal and super-sample that down to its 1080p display. With HDR, the process of mapping content down to the capabilities of the TV is called 'tone-mapping' and ALL HDR capable TV's have to tone-map 'some' content - even those that UHD Premium rated as some content is mastered to 4000nits - with the 'best' TV's hitting around 1800nits - so even these have to tone-map some content down to fit the TV's parameters.

UHD Premium TV's have to comply to a set of parameters and for LED TV's, like the Panasonic you mentioned, have to have a very dark black level (<0.05nits), be able to deliver bright highlights (>1000nits) and have at least a certain amount of the wide colour gamut (>90% of the DCI-P3) to be considered UHD Premium. UHD 'Premium' - to break it down UHD is obviously 4k and Premium means HDR at/above the minimum standards. All HDR (movie/TV) content will be mastered at at least 0.03nit blacks, 1000nit peak brightness and 100% DCI-P3.

Some Manufacturers are making normal SDR TV's and enabling them to play HDR content - Ensuring they have at least HDMI 2.0a and the software to tone-map that content down. They know that as most people are used to 1080p SDR at around 100-200nits, having a TV that offers 4k 'HDR' mapped down to 300-350nits will look better and so people will be 'satisfied' as it is an improvement (at least with some content although some will look worse because of the massive tone-mapping). The Panasonic fails to meet any of the necessary requirements - doesn't get dark enough, doesn't deliver the peak brightness and doesn't have at least 90% of the wide colour gamut. I don't believe it even has a 10bit panel either.

I think that says it all...

Panasonics are generally ok with Input Lag too - They can't compete with LG or Samsung on that but as good (or better) than Sony have been of late...

Trouble is, at 40" you will struggle to get a decent HDR TV at all. 49" seems to be the minimum as everything below that is more HDR compatible and certainly won't come close to delivering HDR at a 'decent' standard. If its just 4k you want without getting a black/blue screen 'cannot play this content' warning with HDR, then its a reasonable TV. Certainly better on the market and at 40" too but none will deliver HDR at what I consider an acceptable standard - not considering the way it was designed to be viewed. It could well be a step up from what you currently have and so seem 'decent' but If you are used to 540p, jumping up to 720p looks fantastic but compared to 1440p (and higher), its not good.

You have to decide if you want it for just 4k, 4k HDR and/or gaming too although in each case, there is better on the market. Of course they might not fit into your budget - not everyone has space for 49"+ screen or the budget to spend on getting a 'quality' HDR experience so I do understand.

@BAMozzy Thanks for your very comprehensive response.

I'm guessing that the old "you get what you pay for" applies to 4K HDR TV's as much as it does for most other electronics. I'm not desperate to buy anything right now, but my TV could go bang at any time really given that it's over 6 years old now. As yet I don't have any 4K devices, but I think my PS4 original outputs HDR?

Is there a 4K HDR that you would recommend for around the £700 - £800 mark and ideally under 50" screen size?

@JimbobLink The only 49" TV's I would recommend is the Sony XE90 (£870 at Currys currently) and Samsung Q7F (£1169 at Co-op but can be found for £930 new but with a damaged box). The Sony has FALD but doesn't quite meet the minimum UHD Premium standards. Its not as bright or as wide colour as the Q7F which is UHD Premium but edge lit. The Samsung has better connectivity (4 x full bandwidth HDMI ports compared to 2 on the Sony) and better input lag for gaming too. Both of these will be 'quite' cheap for what they are as they are both 2017 models - the 2018 replacements will be more expensive. 55" opens up a LOT more choice as Samsung, LG, Sony and even Panasonic have some great TV's - but prices start at around £1k. Considering the 'best' TV of 2017, the LG 55" B7 OLED (the same PQ and image processing as in their W7 wallpaper model which sells for £5.8k 65" or £12k for the 75") can be bought for around £1500, that is a 'bargain' - that's £250 more than the 55" Q7 and infinitely superior PQ than any LED. It would be the TV I would certainly recommend over any others currently available - it also offers the most complete HDR format (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HLG) options as well as 20ms input lag - the same as Samsung's which are better than any others. You cannot buy better for £1500 and certainly worth pushing your budget up for if you can.

Apart from those - which are both around £1k, I wouldn't bother with. The 'Best' 'budget model is probably the MU8000 but doesn't come in smaller than 55". That hits around 600nits and doesn't pass on the wide colour gamut either but its still the 'best' of the rest - and with ~20ms input lag for gaming. As a 'HDR' TV, I wouldn't recommend it but I understand that its still better than any other of the 'budget' TV's.

Budget may seem wrong as £1k on a TV seems a lot for some although I paid nearly £2k for my first 46" HD TV - with no smart, 3D etc that many took for granted a few years later and for £4-500. I paid nearly £2k for a 55" 4k TV (no HDR at all) and then nearly £2k to get a UHD Premium 4k HDR TV because HDR at the minimum standards is absolutely stunning - it was something I was prepared to compromise on. If I wanted a SDR TV that accepted and tone mapped HDR content, I could have paid £400 to get my original 4k TV to do that.

I look at the Q7 and XE9005 as 'Budget' TV's as they are at the very bottom of the UHD Premium (even though the XE9005 isn't actually UHD Premium - its very close and not enough to make a lot of difference) TV's. These are 'entry' level for those wanting the HDR experience. To put it in terms of resolution, these would be like 1500-1600p TV's for example when TV manufacturers are unable to make the full 4k but a lot of content is only 1440p anyway. The content that would be full 4k super samples down to look good and much better than those 1080p TV's that also super-sample down. No TV yet reaches the full 4k and the current 'best' content is still only 1800p because they can't even make mastering monitors at the full 4k (10000nits, BT2020 colour gamut - which is much wider than the DCI-P3 gamut that most current HDR TV's are 'trying' to reach). I would rather pay more to get the 1500-1600p than to spend money on a 1080p TV that allows super-sampling. That's the equivalent of all those other TV's currently available - some have a bigger range than others to Tone-map (super sample down into in res terms) the content but with the 1500-1600p TV's, a lot of the content isn't super-sampled as its only 1440p (mastered to 1000nits) anyway which is well within these TV's capability.

HDR is a MUCH bigger deal than 4k - especially if you don't go big on screen size and/or sit far away. 4k and 1080p can look very similar - games tend to be more noticeably better as they have a lot more defined edges and more detail than film/movies but HDR is much more noticeable and not dependent on screen size or distance. If anything, it would make more sense to compromise on resolution and go for the best HDR spec TV you can afford/get but these are all 4k anyway.

Not all HDR TV's will be suitable for different people - if you need wide angle viewing, then look at OLEDs or IPS panels but IPS panels cannot deliver decent black level so even SDR isn't as impressive on these as they are on OLEDs and VA panel HDR TV's. The reason I mention this is that ALL the current UHD Premium LEDs use VA panels and have quite 'narrow' viewing angles (at least until the 2018 range arrives but they will certainly be above £1500). It may not be the 'best' for you and your situation so have to compromise on say Black level and HDR to get better off angle viewing. This is another reason why the LG B7 is by far the best TV you can buy for £1500 or less - even beats a lot of TV's at £3k+ too by the way...

Thanks @BAMozzy. I think I'll save my pennies for something I'm going to be really happy with. I tend to keep TV's for many years, so I'd like something that will stand the test of time.

I got a 43 inch 4K TV for €399. I couldn't leave it for that price.