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Topic: Team [404 - Team Name Not Found] Deliberation Station

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TowaHerschel7

Oh look? Another week another thumb-twiddling session from me. I have never played a single game from this list...

Owner of http://www.WiiWareWave.com

PSN ID: Rukiafan7
NNID: Rukiafan7
Waves of Adventure and Role Playing PS4 Community: Join Today!

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Jaz007

@themcnoisy @TowaHerschel7 @RogerRoger @Frigate @Th3solution
Final results:
Guitar Hero 5 – EXISTING
Guitar Hero: Aerosmith – POINTELESS
Guitar Hero: Live – POINTLESS
Guitar Hero: Metallica – EXISTING
Guitar Hero Smash Hits - NOT IMPORTANT
Guitar Hero: Van Halen - POINTLESS
Guitar Hero: Warriors of Rock – EXISTING
Guitar Hero World Tour – IMPORTANT
Hail to the Chimp - NOT IMPORTANT
Hannah Montana: The Movie - NOT IMPORTANT
Happy Feet Two -NOT IMPORTANT
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part I – POINTLESS
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part II - NOT IMPORTANT
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince – EXISITNG
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix - NOT EXISTING
Hasbro Family Game Night 3 - NOT IMPORTANT
Hasbro Family Game Night 4: The Game Show - POINTLESS
Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA F - EXISTING
Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA F 2nd - EXISTING
Haze - EXISTING
Heavenly Sword - IMPORTANT
Heavy Fire: Afghanistan - NOT IMPORTANT
Heavy Fire: Shattered Spear -POINTLESS
Heavy Rain -VERY IMPORTANT
Hellboy: The Science of Evil - NOT IMPORTANT
Heroes Over Europe - EXISTING
High Velocity Bowling - EXISTING
The History Channel: Battle for the Pacific - POINTLESS
History Civil War: Secret Missions POINTLESS
The History Channel: Great Battles Medieval - NOT IMPORTANT
History Legends of War: Patton - NOT IMPORTANT
Hitman HD Trilogy -IMPORTANT
Hitman: Absolution - VERY IMPORTANT
Homefront - EXISTING

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

Jaz007

@TowaHerschel7 You can still research and use what you know about the games to participate. Even if you haven't played any or all of the games doesn't mean you can't participate and contribute. You'll see plenty of that if you look through the thread.

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

themcnoisy

@Jaz007 thank you. Happy Easter buddy.

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

RogerRoger

@Jaz007 Thanks for locking this in, Captain. I fully support the lower ranking for History Civil War: Secret Missions considering you've actually played it. Direct experience will always trump second-hand research, so I'm glad that the final weighting called it "Pointless" even if I didn't get back in time to change my vote.

In future, however, I still cannot support or elevate the ranking of a game like Hannah Montana for simply having an easy platinum. Trophy culture has become an important part of modern gaming, I'll grant you, but I've played plenty of abysmal games that I'd want recognised as abysmal, regardless of whether their trophy lists are ridiculously easy or insanely difficult to complete. The idea that a truly pointless game will get played thousands of times more than it should be, basically for digital bragging rights, is a little insane to me personally. Especially considering that a lot of early PlayStation3 games didn't even have trophy lists because of the late implementation; so what, would we give bonus points to something like Sonic '06 if it came with an easy platinum?

At some point, we'll be debating the NCIS game and I'll happily rush to provide my first-hand experience of a truly pointless game, despite it giving you its platinum trophy for simply seeing the end credits after about five hours of insultingly-simple gameplay. I didn't play it for that, I played it because I liked the TV show and wanted it to be a good game, and it wasn't.

I guess this is opening up the whole "Are trophies really part of the actual game?" debate which is perhaps best had elsewhere, and that's not my intention because I'm actually really supportive of trophies and have grown to love them since their implementation.

These are just my own thoughts on the subject. Hurrah for the democracy of the team and I'll still support the final, locked-in rankings each week.

PSN ID: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy

I admittedly made a case for it as it seems I'm the only person who's seemed to have played it out of all the teams in this PS3 listing thing and I'm not all that bothered (I said myself it could be existing or important as i wasn't too sure)

But how come Guitar Hero Metallica is listed as existing if Mcnoisy, RogerRoger and Th3solution all labelled it as important? Just curious @Jaz007 as I don't know how your team does things

You don't need to save the world to find meaning in life. Sometimes all you need is something simple, like someone to take care of - Aigis, Persona 3

"No cost too great. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering" - Hollow Knight

Jaz007

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy I’ll check that count again later today.
@rogerroger Not important was the majority of the votes for Hannah Montana. I didn’t do anything but use democracy there.
@Themcnoisy @Frigate @Th3Solution @Towaheeschel7 If any of you think a game’s ranking is funny, I’ll double check and explain how the ranking was decided.
It goes as follows: majority of points is the first thing used. If you’ve played the game your vote is two points. If there’s a tie, the one with more people who have played it wins. If that doesn’t work, then I’ll look at the arguments made and if someone supporting a category has presented more of a case. This is when my judgement comes into play, and I could put a marker next this so it’s open to opposition if you all want. This wasn’t used for any of the games in this list though.
Also, there a a bit of bleed over in categories. Example: if there are two, important votes, two existing votes, and one very important vote, the very important vote will be counted as important and important will win.
I hope that all made sense.

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

Th3solution

@RogerRoger I appreciate your candid and logical words, as always. And I actually do think that this is a good place and time to discuss whether the trophy list should factor into the overall judgment of a game’s importance, influence, and ultimate space it occupies in the halls of video game history. If not here then where? 😄

My take on it is that, for the most part, the trophy list should be a very small piece of the overall perspective on a game. In fact, so small that for the vast majority of games I would argue that the trophies shouldn’t factor in at all. As you alluded to, some of the games we are judging don’t even have trophies if they came out before implementation (2008 I think?). Metal Gear Solid 4 for example, didn’t have them initially, but they were added years later. Did that increase or decrease MGS4’s status as one of the great games of this generation? Probably not. It did motivate many to play it again for the trophies, but likely it would have still been a top tier game without them.
However a few games have become almost totally identified in the gaming sphere because of their trophies. Most of the earliest easy platinums would come to mind here. Hannah Montana chief among them, along with Terminator Salvation, and maybe a couple others. These games, although mostly garbage, set trends and influenced gaming culture. Although I never played Hannah Montana (and never will) I know about the game because it was discussed on podcasts like Greg and Colin’s “Beyond” back in the PS3 days, and still pops up on internet list for easy platinums. I completely agree with you that it is ridiculous to elevate a garbage game just because of an easy trophy list, and most easy plats nowadays aren’t really influencing the culture like those early ones did.
Don’t get me wrong, Hannah Montana isn’t splitting the atom, so to speak. It’s mostly a piece of rubbish by all accounts, but there’s no denying that it moved the needle, ever so slightly, amongst gamers and trophy hunters clamored to play it for the shiny digital prize.
Per @themcnoisy ‘s well crafted criteria with his four categories, in order of weight:
1) Importance to gaming as of today, 2)Technical achievement, 3)Artistic Merit and 4)Personal opinion
Unfortunately there is a small, but very real, level of importance to gaming that at least makes it not ‘pointless’. And again, it’s still garbage and a dud on the other 3 categories, so definitely ‘not important.’

“so what, would we give bonus points to something like Sonic '06 if it came with an easy platinum?” — my opinion is No. That is unless by virtue of that easy platinum the game garnered a bunch of fans and a bunch of discussion, boosted sales and created copycats due to the trophy list.

Anyways, I don’t think we’ll run into this kind of issue much. Like NCIS, I barely knew there was an NCIS game and I definitely didn’t have any idea what the difficulty of the platinum was. And so it should be for nearly all the other games we come across where trophy list are unlikely to factor in.
But I do think it is important for us to establish this. A game’s trophies should be a non factor in its rank, unless there is a special case like Miss Montana.

Edited on by Th3solution

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Jaz007

@Th3solution Excellent write-up. I agree wholeheartedly. @Rogerroger Also, I figured you meant that in general (not towards me) but wanted to clarify just in case.
But yeah, Hanna Montana was the first real easy platinum I think for the most part, or the first one to catch on, and now it’s still influencing some games today. It’s created a series of “easy platinums” so to speak. And people keep buying them for the same reason.

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

mookysam

@Th3solution Was Hannah Montana really that important or influential to gaming culture as a result of its easy Platinum? It's perhaps worth remembering that long before PS3 trophies there were Xbox 360 Achievements and games like Avatar. Obviously here we're talking about PS3 games, but trophies and the impact they had on gaming culture were an area that Sony was very much playing catch-up.

mookysam

PSN: mookysam

themcnoisy

@RogerRoger @mookysam @Jaz007 @Th3solution Another way to look at it - is it one of the worst games according to the criteria?

According to importance it can defo be bumped up to not important in the trophy capacity - compared to some of the dross which doesn't stand out in any way.

Also Hannah Montana was notorious on xbox also.

I'm personally OK with either.

Edited on by themcnoisy

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

Th3solution

@mookysam Well, compared to other ‘pointless’ games, yes. I define “pointless” as a game having literally no value to humankind. It should not exist, or rather if it did not exist, then we wouldn’t even know the difference. It’s not that Hannah Montana, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, or Terminator Salvation affected the entire industry or single-handedly started a revolution, but they were discussed and played more than they should have been because of the trophies.
Yes, PS3 trophies were late on the scene, but even more so why some of these early trophy games influenced PS3 culture but not Xbox because XB achievements were already a couple years into its life by 2009. In contrast, PS3 trophy hunters had fewer games to choose from to hoard trophies, so they bought this garbage.
Again, these lousy games are by no means ‘important’. They have no redeeming value as far as art, gameplay, or design, other than to inspire many people to play them for a platinum. And personally I think that’s worth something. And that something is to be not quite ‘pointless’. Anyone who used to listen to “Beyond” knows they talked about these games a fair amount. More so than any of the other games we would place in the pointless category.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Th3solution

@themcnoisy Yeah, and that’s the thing, by criteria, I think we unfortunately need to give a nod to Hannah Montana. The technical achievement, Art, and personal opinion are largely subjective. The influence on gaming is a little more objective, and it’s your highest weighted criterion. I does pain me to reward a poor game and not deemed it pointless because it was one of the first that people actually went out of their way to play it, knowing it’s a bad game (and possibly still do even now).
I sound like a crazy person on this point and honestly I don’t care that much about the dumb game, lol. It’s more the principle of the thing for future reference. 😄

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

RogerRoger

@Jaz007 Oh, absolutely meant in general terms, yes. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

My post was simply "this is what I would've done if I were back before the final lock-in" based on your responses to my research, which I wanted to acknowledge; I'd have changed my vote for History Civil War, but not for Hannah Montana. As I said, hurrah for democracy and I fully support whatever conclusions the team draws, even if they run contrary to my own personal opinions (and for the record, I wasn't questioning the outcome or arguing with the ranking; again, I was just saying "this is what I'd have argued for, were I back in time").

And the beauty of having all this diversity on the team is that, whilst I still do hold my specific opinion over trophies and their impact / integration on the games they accompany, I totally understand where you, @Th3solution and @themcnoisy are coming from because you've all kindly taken the time to explain your position when I said what I said. Which is awesome.

Still gonna rank NCIS as pointless, though.

@Th3solution Further thanks for your detailed thoughts on this issue, too. As somebody who doesn't tend to engage with online communities (aside from PushSquare, of course) or watch their content, I had absolutely no idea of Hannah Montana's reputation before I did the research about it, and even then it was a small aside in a review which alerted me to it having an easy platinum, which I then mentioned in my summary.

It's fascinating to me that there are all these folks out there who play games so totally differently to me, and to others. I think that speaks a lot to the brilliance of gaming as an art form. You can only really read a book one way, or watch television one way, but pick up a game and you've got multiple ways of enjoying it. Do you hunt for trophies? Play for story? Increase the difficulty and play for challenge? Do you replay over and over, to learn it inside-out, or play once and trade in? Given that each approach would (I assume) have quite a large set of fans, both participating in online communities / podcasts / forums, etc. and perhaps not, it's important to recognise every possible angle... which is tough when I'm just me, doing ten minutes of Google work to stick a label on a game I've never heard of before!

So yeah, on the basis of that, I can appreciate that a game's reputation for having an easily-accessible platinum trophy could count for some people, even if it doesn't count for me personally.

PSN ID: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Th3solution

@RogerRoger Well said. There is a remarkable diversity of gamers out there, of which we are a slice. Although I think we (and I speak of the collective user base of Push Square) are a fairly diverse bunch, but probably are not a perfect representation of all facets of the gaming populace. I’m sure we’ve missed some games so far that we’ve deemed ‘pointless’ that have a rabid fan base out there somewhere or that, unbeknownst to us the game had some major role in influencing another product which became a smash hit. I suppose it’s impossible to know all the ins and outs behind every single one of these 1442 games. But one of the wonderful things about being engaged in Push Square is that because of the user recommendations I’ve been exposed to games I would have never given a second thought to.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

RogerRoger

@Th3solution I reckon PushSquare does alright, especially with the good core of diverse regulars but yeah, it's something I had to keep in mind when we started this rather significant undertaking; when finished, this will be "The PushSquare Community's Ranking of PS3 Games" and not "The All-Time Global Definitive Ranking of PS3 Games, Fact" so there are gonna be some outcomes that are a result of our personal opinions, no matter how objective we try to be.

I know I've thought twice about a couple games mentioned already, and I look forward to hearing from anybody else who goes away and plays something they never thought they would.

Speaking of rabid fans, I'm just glad we won't have to rank Gravity Rush.

PSN ID: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

themcnoisy

These are our games people!

Just Dance 2015 Ubisoft Paris
Just Dance 2016 Ubisoft Paris
Just Dance 2017 Ubisoft Paris
Just Dance 2018 Ubisoft Paris
Kung Fu Rider SCE Studios Japan
L.A. Noire Team Bondi
Lair Factor 5
Last Rebellion Hit Maker
Legendary Spark Unlimited
Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole Krome Studios
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel Nihon Falcom Corp
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 2 Nihon Falcom Corp
The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon Étranges Libellules
Legends of War: Patton Enigma
Lego Batman: The Videogame Traveller's Tales
Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes Traveller's Tales
Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham Traveller's Tales
LEGO Dimensions Starter Pack Traveller's Tales
Lego Harry Potter: Years 1–4 Traveller's Tales
Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 Traveller's Tales
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures Traveller's Tales
Lego Indiana Jones 2: The Adventure Continues Traveller's Tales
LEGO Jurassic World Traveller's Tales
The LEGO Movie Videogame Traveller's Tales
LEGO Lord Of The Rings Traveller's Tales
LEGO Marvel's Avengers Traveller's Tales
Lego Marvel Super Heroes Traveller's Tales
Lego Pirates of the Caribbean: The Video Game Traveller's Tales
Lego Rock Band Harmonix / Traveller's Tales
Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga Traveller's Tales
Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens Traveller's Tales
Lego Star Wars III: The Clone Wars Traveller's Tales

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

themcnoisy

@Jaz007 @RogerRoger @Th3solution sorry for not being too active recently. I have been in work pretty much none stop. Combined with kids and stuff it's pretty hectic.

I'm off work for 2 days now so will defo contribute to this list, which I think is actually really good.

One thing I noticed running the fifa list is if you have all of the games In a franchise you can better rate them according to our criteria. Especially with Lego games.

Telltale Lego games are very much enjoyable if you like the franchise they are based on. I love Star wars and the Marvel hero ensemble so Lego Star Wars - Fantastic. Marvel Super Heroes - Fantastic. But I don't care for Lego Harry Potter - so it's counterpart game is rubbish. Lego Jurassic Park - Rubbish etc.

Running all the Lego games in one go will give us better appreciation of the games in question without being allied to a particular franchise. It goes without saying once we have locked in the result it will probably be challenged for the reason I stated above. Let's wait and see

Forum Best Game of All Time Awards

Multiplat 2018: Horizon Zero Dawn
Nintendo 2017: Super Mario Bros 3
Playstation 2016: Uncharted 2
Multiplat 2015: Final Fantasy 7

PSN: mc_noisy

Jaz007

It’s hard for me not label almost everything past LEGO Batman pointless. The series became very stale last that point. Way too many of them too. 3-4 a year.

Edited on by Jaz007

Backkoggery ID: Jaz007

TowaHerschel7

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel ~ Very Important: The storytelling and gameplay is absolutely incredible, the music is absolute ear candy, and the characters feel like real people. The fact that even the NPC's have massive backstories is one reason of many why the game is so important and that more games should mirror this way of storytelling.

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II ~ Very Important: Same as the first, however this game is a better game overall and is easily the best JRPG released on the PS3 in the Western Hemisphere. Also the feels you get when a certain end-game cutscene occurs, let's just say that you grow attached to the characters in a way that no other game I've ever played has accomplished before.

Edited on by TowaHerschel7

Owner of http://www.WiiWareWave.com

PSN ID: Rukiafan7
NNID: Rukiafan7
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